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Thread: Aerodynamics for Test Pilots

  1. #1

    Aerodynamics for Test Pilots

    Hi Guys and Gals,

    Here's a couple of stall speed questions.

    1) POH for the Sundowner lists stall speed with zero flaps and
    stall speeds with 3 notches for flaps.

    Has anyone recorded stall speeds with one notch of flaps and two notches of
    flaps?

    2) Does putting the airplane into a full slip (full rudder with wings
    level) affect stall speeds?
    If so, has anyone recorded stall speeds in a full slip?

    Steve
    N2009D


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  2. #2
    Orbiting Earth Orbiting Earth corcoran's Avatar
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    Aerodynamics for Test Pilots

    Your Sundowner can stall at ANY speed. Never mind the numbers. Know how to identify an imminent stall and how to recover.

    Tom Corcoran
    Boston

    -----Original Message-----
    From: MrLucky353@aol.com
    To: bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    Sent: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:10:50 EST
    Subject: [BAC-Mail] Aerodynamics for Test Pilots


    Hi Guys and Gals,

    Here's a couple of stall speed questions.

    1) POH for the Sundowner lists stall speed with zero flaps and
    stall speeds with 3 notches for flaps.

    Has anyone recorded stall speeds with one notch of flaps and two notches of
    flaps?

    2) Does putting the airplane into a full slip (full rudder with wings
    level) affect stall speeds?
    If so, has anyone recorded stall speeds in a full slip?

    Steve
    N2009D


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  3. #3

    Aerodynamics for Test Pilots

    I have done stall tests with no flaps, all flaps, each flap setting, Power
    On and Off in my Sport. I have had the pitot system checked for errors and
    everything is working great. The speeds listed in My POH are right on the
    money.

    Be Careful doing stalls while slipped. Our aircraft do not really spin, they
    spiral. The difference is airspeed. The spiral will build airspeed very
    fast. If you should be in a slip and stall the aircraft you may be in for
    the ride of your life.

    CAR 3 and FAR 23 only require that the manufacture demonstrate Vso and Vs1.
    Vso is in the landing configuration and Vs1 in this case is a clean
    configuration. This is why there is no information on stall speeds for the
    other flap settings. There is nothing stopping you from going out and
    stalling the plane in these different settings. Only do this if you are
    comfortable with your skills at low speeds. Make sure you have at least 2500
    ft AGL and if a wing drops, use the rudder to pick it up and not the
    ailerons. If you get crossed controlled at stalled, the spiral will come to
    haunt you.

    Jeff Bryant
    Southwest Regional Director
    Beech Aero Club
    1975 Sport "160" N6993R
    California City, Ca







    -----Original Message-----
    From: bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org
    [mailto:bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org] On Behalf Of MrLucky353@aol.com
    Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 1:11 PM
    To: bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    Subject: [BAC-Mail] Aerodynamics for Test Pilots

    Hi Guys and Gals,

    Here's a couple of stall speed questions.

    1) POH for the Sundowner lists stall speed with zero flaps and
    stall speeds with 3 notches for flaps.

    Has anyone recorded stall speeds with one notch of flaps and two notches of
    flaps?

    2) Does putting the airplane into a full slip (full rudder with wings
    level) affect stall speeds?
    If so, has anyone recorded stall speeds in a full slip?

    Steve
    N2009D


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    BAC-Mail@beechaeroclub.org
    http://www.beechaeroclub.org/mailman/listinfo/bac-mail


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  4. #4

    Aerodynamics for Test Pilots

    I think you may have missed my point. The Musketeer can indeed spin. I never
    said it could not. The spins that NASA and others have done during testing
    in the past were done by professional test pilots and the aircraft was
    brought to the proper conditions needed for a spin.

    If you do not know how to properly spin the Musketeer, nine times out of ten
    you will spiral instead of spin. I can promise that.

    The aircraft must be completely stalled before ANY control inputs are put in
    and you must use aileron input at the exact time. The following statement is
    from Beech about how to perform the spin in any of the Musketeer line of
    aircraft.

    "OPERATIONAL LIMITATIONS SPINS:
    The airplane will not spin if orthodox entry is used, but will enter a
    spiral dive.
    Speed builds up rapidly in a spiral dive, requiring high pullout loads;
    therefore, if a spiral is inadvertently entered recovery from the spiral is
    to be initiated within two turns.

    ENTRY:
    Stall the airplane with the control column hard back, throttle in idle
    position, flaps up, carburetor heat as required and with the nose about 15
    above the horizon. At the stall, apply full rudder in the direction required
    to spin. A slight rudder application immediately before the stall will
    assure the direction of spin. The airplane nose will drop and rotate towards
    applied rudder. When the wings are 90 to the horizon, apply full aileron
    against (i.e. against the intended direction of spin). The airplane will go
    slightly inverted and enter a normal spin. If aileron against is not applied
    or applied too late, the airplane will enter a spiral dive, and recovery
    must initiated by the second turn. If the full back stick is not applied and
    held, the airplane may spiral. Again recovery must be initiated not later
    than the second turn. If the aileron is applied too early, the airplane will
    not rotate and merely remain in a straight stalled condition.

    RECOVERY:
    Immediately move the control column full forward and simultaneously apply
    full rudder opposite to the direction of the spin; continue to hold this
    control position until rotation stops and then neutralize all controls and
    execute a smooth pullout. Ailerons should be neutral and throttle in idle
    position at all times during recovery ."

    I think this says it all. It comes from the Flight Test Department at Beech
    and was later required as a placard and supplement to the POH.

    If you do exactly what it says here, the airplane will spin with or without
    the spin kit installed, and this is what NASA did in the article on the AOPA
    site. Out of 129 try's, they performed 127 spins and two spirals. But here
    again, the purpose of the test was to indeed spin the aircraft and then try
    to spin them after a modification to the wings and tips. This would be a
    normal test procedure. I do not believe that the article is trying to say
    that a Musketeer will indeed spin 127 out of 129 try's every time. That is
    just not the case.


    Jeff Bryant
    Southwest Regional Director
    Beech Aero Club
    1975 Sport "160" N6993R
    California City, Ca



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Carl Link [mailto:carllink@comcast.net]
    Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 5:45 AM
    To: Jeff and Teresa Bryant
    Subject: Re: [BAC-Mail] Aerodynamics for Test Pilots

    Jeff--Here's an article on a spin study. Note in table 3 that the C-23
    Musketeer used had the highest percentage of spins/spin attempts, having
    spun on 127 of 129 attempts.

    http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2003/sp0302.html

    Carl Link
    N3666Q
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Jeff and Teresa Bryant" <jnt.bryant@verizon.net>
    To: <MrLucky353@aol.com>; <bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org>
    Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 9:31 PM
    Subject: RE: [BAC-Mail] Aerodynamics for Test Pilots


    >I have done stall tests with no flaps, all flaps, each flap setting, Power
    > On and Off in my Sport. I have had the pitot system checked for errors and
    > everything is working great. The speeds listed in My POH are right on the
    > money.
    >
    > Be Careful doing stalls while slipped. Our aircraft do not really spin,
    > they
    > spiral. The difference is airspeed. The spiral will build airspeed very
    > fast. If you should be in a slip and stall the aircraft you may be in for
    > the ride of your life.
    >
    > CAR 3 and FAR 23 only require that the manufacture demonstrate Vso and
    > Vs1.
    > Vso is in the landing configuration and Vs1 in this case is a clean
    > configuration. This is why there is no information on stall speeds for the
    > other flap settings. There is nothing stopping you from going out and
    > stalling the plane in these different settings. Only do this if you are
    > comfortable with your skills at low speeds. Make sure you have at least
    > 2500
    > ft AGL and if a wing drops, use the rudder to pick it up and not the
    > ailerons. If you get crossed controlled at stalled, the spiral will come
    > to
    > haunt you.
    >
    > Jeff Bryant
    > Southwest Regional Director
    > Beech Aero Club
    > 1975 Sport "160" N6993R
    > California City, Ca
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org
    > [mailto:bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org] On Behalf Of
    > MrLucky353@aol.com
    > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 1:11 PM
    > To: bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    > Subject: [BAC-Mail] Aerodynamics for Test Pilots
    >
    > Hi Guys and Gals,
    >
    > Here's a couple of stall speed questions.
    >
    > 1) POH for the Sundowner lists stall speed with zero flaps and
    > stall speeds with 3 notches for flaps.
    >
    > Has anyone recorded stall speeds with one notch of flaps and two notches
    > of
    > flaps?
    >
    > 2) Does putting the airplane into a full slip (full rudder with wings
    > level) affect stall speeds?
    > If so, has anyone recorded stall speeds in a full slip?
    >
    > Steve
    > N2009D
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > BAC-Mail mailing list
    > BAC-Mail@beechaeroclub.org
    > http://www.beechaeroclub.org/mailman/listinfo/bac-mail
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > BAC-Mail mailing list
    > BAC-Mail@beechaeroclub.org
    > http://www.beechaeroclub.org/mailman/listinfo/bac-mail
    >




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