Madras Wing Tip A23-24

[wrcooke]

I don't think there is any legal way around the weight reduction. I wrote to Ace Demers back when he was in business and got a rather brusk reply. I believe that it was a sore subject with him. Having flown an A23 with Demer's tips for the past 12 years there is no doubt in my mind that one with Demer's tips would illegally lift more than one with standard tips. Right now, I don't think that you can buy the tips or the STC with or without the gross restriction.

I don't think there is any such thing as a standard EGT. All you have to do is move the placement of the temperature probe and inch or so to drastically change the reading. My EGT guage is not even calibrated and the IA who installed it told me that the reading is not important, just the relative reading when the EGT is peaked and then you run a bit rich of peak. I have marks that are about 25 deg F apart so you can judge how far off peak you are running and an adjustment to put the needle where you want it on the scale. It is important to have the probes the same distance from the exhaust flange on each cylinder.

I have the IO346 Continental rather than the IO360 Lycoming.

macdon221 <macdon221@yahoo.ca> wrote: Can someone shed some light on this subject. The A23-24 that I use
have the Madras wing tips installed which according to the old STC
reduces the gross weight by 125 lbs. Is there any way to get this
weight back or partially get it back? Is there any other STC that can
be purchased to get an up-gross on this aircraft. Also does anyone
have the operating temps for the Lycoming io-360 200hp engine. It
would be to program into an EGT for the yellow/red range on the
digital meter. What is the Normal operating temps, caution, danger
ranges etc.
Thanks

Macdon221








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[bpassinos]

Mac:
The only way that I know to get your 125 # back is to get rid of your
Madras wing tips and to to 'stock' wing tips
Bill Passinos
West Palm Beach, Fl

On Mon, 15 May 2006 17:15:59 -0000 "macdon221" <macdon221@yahoo.ca>
writes:
Can someone shed some light on this subject. The A23-24 that I use
have the Madras wing tips installed which according to the old STC
reduces the gross weight by 125 lbs. Is there any way to get this
weight back or partially get it back? Is there any other STC that can
be purchased to get an up-gross on this aircraft. Also does anyone
have the operating temps for the Lycoming io-360 200hp engine. It
would be to program into an EGT for the yellow/red range on the
digital meter. What is the Normal operating temps, caution, danger
ranges etc.
Thanks

Macdon221







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[bpassinos]

Willis, et all:
The reasons for the weight reduction were discussed on this 'chat' about
a year ago and the archives should give you a good explanation.
Briefly, Madras and other similar wing tips, whether they are curved
downward or upward, affect the 'spanwise' lift distribution (i.e.it
shifts
the 'center of lift' of the wing further outward and causes a higher
moment at the wing root (this means higher stresses). In order to
compensate
for this additional stress, Vendors have to either take a hit on the
gross weight or prove to FAA that the additional stresses will not reduce
the life span of the wing (one has to basically recertify the structural
aspects of the wing - a very expenssive proposition).
For the price of a pair of new (or used) stock wing tips, you can restore
the Gross weight of your plane to original condition.
Bill Passinos
West Palm Beach, Fl

On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) WILLIS COOKE <wrcooke@flash.net>
writes:
I don't think there is any legal way around the weight reduction. I
wrote to Ace Demers back when he was in business and got a rather brusk
reply. I believe that it was a sore subject with him. Having flown an
A23 with Demer's tips for the past 12 years there is no doubt in my mind
that one with Demer's tips would illegally lift more than one with
standard tips. Right now, I don't think that you can buy the tips or
the STC with or without the gross restriction.



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[mvanover]

We have the IO-360 in our Sierra. Our EGT doesn't have any degree markings, just marks. It does have a manually movable red needle. I don't think the actual temperature is as important as where it peaks. We lean to peak at altitude and allow it to stabilize and set the needle there, then we enrichen a couple of marks (50 deg) rich of the needle (ROP). Of course this is only good for a particular power setting and altitude. Typically we set 24 square, which I think is around 72% at the mid altitudes where we can still get 24" MAP. We get just a tad over 9 gph fuel flow using that technique with 130-134 KTAS. There are some that say you can lean past peak EGT too (LOP), but I believe you shouldn't be above 65% power doing that. I think leaning LOP below 65% you'd start running rough before you could damage the engine. I'm not sure you could make enough BMEP to damage the engine below 65% anyway. I always lean ROP and for smooth operation.

GAMI recommends LOP operations with their injectors. I have read their web site and it does make sense, but I have heard (second hand) that some have had cylinder problems with LOP operations with GAMIs. I have also heard others swear by LOP operations. I don't have any first hand experience with GAMI injectors or their leaning technique. Maybe someone else has. I have heard first hand that the GAMIs are well worth the money (Bonanza owner). Still, if I had them, I'd probably not use the LOP technique....unless I had a spare set of cylinders and pistons. I'll bet there is a long thread in the BAC archives on leaning. Leaning seems to be a favorite hanger topic.

As a newbie/first time Musketeer co-owner, I don't know anything about the Madras tips for the baby Beech's. However, I do know our Sierra could use a little more stability in rough air. Maybe some one should come up with some winglets?

Marty Vanover
Phoenix, Az

macdon221 <macdon221@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Can someone shed some light on this subject. The A23-24 that I use
have the Madras wing tips installed which according to the old STC
reduces the gross weight by 125 lbs. Is there any way to get this
weight back or partially get it back? Is there any other STC that can
be purchased to get an up-gross on this aircraft. Also does anyone
have the operating temps for the Lycoming io-360 200hp engine. It
would be to program into an EGT for the yellow/red range on the
digital meter. What is the Normal operating temps, caution, danger
ranges etc.
Thanks

Macdon221







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[wrcooke]

I know all the theories and I am well aware of the dialog that previously was posted. I posted a goodly part of it. My opinion is that the bottom line is ill will by the FAA. The opinions of others may vary.

Bill Passinos <bpassinos@juno.com> wrote: Willis, et all:
The reasons for the weight reduction were discussed on this 'chat' about a year ago and the archives should give you a good explanation.
Briefly, Madras and other similar wing tips, whether they are curved downward or upward, affect the 'spanwise' lift distribution (i.e.it shifts
the 'center of lift' of the wing further outward and causes a higher moment at the wing root (this means higher stresses). In order to compensate
for this additional stress, Vendors have to either take a hit on the gross weight or prove to FAA that the additional stresses will not reduce
the life span of the wing (one has to basically recertify the structural aspects of the wing - a very expenssive proposition).
For the price of a pair of new (or used) stock wing tips, you can restore the Gross weight of your plane to original condition.
Bill Passinos
West Palm Beach, Fl

On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) WILLIS COOKE <wrcooke@flash.net> writes:
I don't think there is any legal way around the weight reduction. I wrote to Ace Demers back when he was in business and got a rather brusk reply. I believe that it was a sore subject with him. Having flown an A23 with Demer's tips for the past 12 years there is no doubt in my mind that one with Demer's tips would illegally lift more than one with standard tips. Right now, I don't think that you can buy the tips or the STC with or without the gross restriction.






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[danielkirby]

Hi all,

I put the Demers tips on my sundowner maybe 25 yrs
ago, and I don't remember a weight reduction. Has this
always been, or was the STC changed later?

Dan Kirby
Sierra N9299S

--- Bill Passinos <bpassinos@juno.com> wrote:

> Willis, et all:
> The reasons for the weight reduction were discussed
> on this 'chat' about
> a year ago and the archives should give you a good
> explanation.
> Briefly, Madras and other similar wing tips, whether
> they are curved
> downward or upward, affect the 'spanwise' lift
> distribution (i.e.it
> shifts
> the 'center of lift' of the wing further outward and
> causes a higher
> moment at the wing root (this means higher
> stresses). In order to
> compensate
> for this additional stress, Vendors have to either
> take a hit on the
> gross weight or prove to FAA that the additional
> stresses will not reduce
> the life span of the wing (one has to basically
> recertify the structural
> aspects of the wing - a very expenssive
> proposition).
> For the price of a pair of new (or used) stock wing
> tips, you can restore
> the Gross weight of your plane to original
> condition.
> Bill Passinos
> West Palm Beach, Fl
>
> On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) WILLIS
> COOKE <wrcooke@flash.net>
> writes:
> I don't think there is any legal way around the
> weight reduction. I
> wrote to Ace Demers back when he was in business and
> got a rather brusk
> reply. I believe that it was a sore subject with
> him. Having flown an
> A23 with Demer's tips for the past 12 years there is
> no doubt in my mind
> that one with Demer's tips would illegally lift more
> than one with
> standard tips. Right now, I don't think that you
> can buy the tips or
> the STC with or without the gross restriction.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
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>
>
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> for the Musketeer series!
>
> www.beechaeroclub.org
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> musketeermail-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>


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[wrcooke]

I think that it has always been but I didn't put mine on until 1994 so I am not sure before that. The date on my STC is 31 Aug 1989 and the gross for a C23 is 2450 lbs. There is a different gross for each model and I don't know what the normal gross for the C23 is.

Ann and Dan Kirby <abk100@yahoo.com> wrote: Hi all,

I put the Demers tips on my sundowner maybe 25 yrs
ago, and I don't remember a weight reduction. Has this
always been, or was the STC changed later?

Dan Kirby
Sierra N9299S

--- Bill Passinos wrote:

> Willis, et all:
> The reasons for the weight reduction were discussed
> on this 'chat' about
> a year ago and the archives should give you a good
> explanation.
> Briefly, Madras and other similar wing tips, whether
> they are curved
> downward or upward, affect the 'spanwise' lift
> distribution (i.e.it
> shifts
> the 'center of lift' of the wing further outward and
> causes a higher
> moment at the wing root (this means higher
> stresses). In order to
> compensate
> for this additional stress, Vendors have to either
> take a hit on the
> gross weight or prove to FAA that the additional
> stresses will not reduce
> the life span of the wing (one has to basically
> recertify the structural
> aspects of the wing - a very expenssive
> proposition).
> For the price of a pair of new (or used) stock wing
> tips, you can restore
> the Gross weight of your plane to original
> condition.
> Bill Passinos
> West Palm Beach, Fl
>
> On Mon, 15 May 2006 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT) WILLIS
> COOKE
> writes:
> I don't think there is any legal way around the
> weight reduction. I
> wrote to Ace Demers back when he was in business and
> got a rather brusk
> reply. I believe that it was a sore subject with
> him. Having flown an
> A23 with Demer's tips for the past 12 years there is
> no doubt in my mind
> that one with Demer's tips would illegally lift more
> than one with
> standard tips. Right now, I don't think that you
> can buy the tips or
> the STC with or without the gross restriction.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
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>
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> for the Musketeer series!
>
> www.beechaeroclub.org
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> musketeermail-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>


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