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Thread: True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

  1. #1

    True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    Hi,

    I've also got an A23-24 and do see true airspeeds of about 127-129 knots at about 8000 feet.

    You might be forgetting to convert indicated airspeed to true airspeed. As I recall your indicated airspeed drops about 2 to 2.25 knots for each 1000 feet of altitude (less air up there to push thru the pitot).

    So at 5000 feet - indicated may be 120 knots but true airspeed is closer to 130 knots. At 8000 feet 130 knots true would indicate something about 110 to 112 knots.

    Mark
    N24TD
    A23-24

    ================================================== ==========
    From: Trae McElwaney <gaboytm@yahoo.com>
    Date: 2006/07/08 Sat PM 08:49:41 CDT
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [musketeermail] True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    Good day Musketeer mailers,
    I own a Musketeer A 23- 24 and I only get around 115 kts average. This plane advertises 130 kts in a perfect world, I don't quite understand how you get faster kts at higher altitudes, when I fly at higher altitudes, I seem to go a little slower if It changes much at all. I did expect to get at least 120 kts average out of this plane.
    Then I read an article on a Sundowner with the 180 hp and it is supposed to get 125 kts. I guess I am just curious if this is normal for my plane? And I would like some real world numbers from actual owners.
    I would appreciate any comparisons from other Super Musketeer and other Musketeer / Sundowner owners.
    Thanks,
    T. M.


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  2. #2

    True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    I have an A23, not an A23/24. I flight plan for 104 knots true. My POH says that I can get 115 knots at 2500 and 120 at 8500. I can get that if I fly solo, ballast aft, have minimum fuel, fly full throttle and lean to peak rpm and have a cool day. I would say, be happy with 115 under normal circumstances. Don't regret not buying brand C or brand P because they rate their airplanes the same way that brand B does. The specs are for a perfect airplane in new condition flown under perfect circumstances by the perfect factory test pilot solo.

    Trae McElwaney <gaboytm@yahoo.com> wrote: Good day Musketeer mailers,
    I own a Musketeer A 23- 24 and I only get around 115 kts average. This plane advertises 130 kts in a perfect world, I don't quite understand how you get faster kts at higher altitudes, when I fly at higher altitudes, I seem to go a little slower if It changes much at all. I did expect to get at least 120 kts average out of this plane.
    Then I read an article on a Sundowner with the 180 hp and it is supposed to get 125 kts. I guess I am just curious if this is normal for my plane? And I would like some real world numbers from actual owners.
    I would appreciate any comparisons from other Super Musketeer and other Musketeer / Sundowner owners.
    Thanks,
    T. M.


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  3. #3

    True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    Winds at altitude, particularly westbound, are generally higher than
    they are closer to the ground. They can be a much larger percentage of
    your true airspeed. A 25-knot headwind sure takes a bite out of a
    125-knot TAS. Even if that is a quartering wind, the headwind component
    can still be large compared to your overall airspeed.

    If wind isn't the problem, there are a few places to check. Rigging is
    probably the first place to start. I seem to recall that the A23/24 has
    a constant speed prop--you could have the governor (and your tachometer)
    checked for accuracy. If your plane has antennas that aren't being
    used, like an ADF loop for example, remove it. You'd be surprised what
    a difference little changes can make.

    You didn't mention how old the engine is. I owned a Sierra for two
    years. When I first bought it, the engine was middle-aged, about 800
    SMOH, and average TAS was around 132kt. After a nosegear collapse I did
    a full overhaul and installed a new three-blade prop, which is reputed
    to slow the bird down by a few knots. After that overhaul I routinely
    made 140kt TAS in the same flight configuration, even with three
    blades. Engine age can make a big difference. (That's why NASCAR crews
    rebuild so often!)

    Hope this helps!


    > I don't quite understand how you get faster kts at higher altitudes,
    > when I fly at higher altitudes, I seem to go a little slower if It
    > changes much at all. I did expect to get at least 120 kts average out
    > of this plane.
    >
    >


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  4. #4

    True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    The book says 130 knots at 7000' and 75% power (2700RPM) and mine will do that. (probably not at gross weight). Many pilots tend to use one RPM and not consider the fact that the air is less dense at altitude. 2450 RPM is 65% at 2500' and produces 116 knots. If you fly higher, and increase your RPM to maintain 65%, you'll go faster at the same fuel flow.

    Carl Link
    N3666Q
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Trae McElwaney
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:49 PM
    Subject: [musketeermail] True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner


    Good day Musketeer mailers,
    I own a Musketeer A 23- 24 and I only get around 115 kts average. This plane advertises 130 kts in a perfect world, I don't quite understand how you get faster kts at higher altitudes, when I fly at higher altitudes, I seem to go a little slower if It changes much at all. I did expect to get at least 120 kts average out of this plane.
    Then I read an article on a Sundowner with the 180 hp and it is supposed to get 125 kts. I guess I am just curious if this is normal for my plane? And I would like some real world numbers from actual owners.
    I would appreciate any comparisons from other Super Musketeer and other Musketeer / Sundowner owners.
    Thanks,
    T. M.


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  5. #5

    True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    Carl is correct. And to clarify one more time, the speeds involved are
    Indicated Airspeed, True Airspeed, and Groundspeed. Basically (for our
    purposes), IAS (or Calibrated Airspeed/CAS) is what your gauge says.
    TAS is your IAS corrected for density altitude (pressure altitude and
    temperature). This is the ONLY speed that matters, if you are comparing
    performance, with others or as the result of changes (like an antenna
    removal).
    Groundspeed is TAS as affected by wind. It's nice to brag or complain
    about, but has nothing to do with measured or compared performance, other
    than using it in a carefully controlled way to validate your IAS/CAS.

    There are additional refinements to these statements, but they will serve as
    stated for the basic purposes. Most performance comparisons should be made
    at a specific density altitude, most commonly 7,500 or 8,000 feet. You can
    easily calculate the DA using any of the available tools; GPS, flight
    calculator, etc. This enables you to make generally valid comparisons even
    when conditions vary on different days. Just figure out what altitude you
    need to indicate, in order to achieve the desired Density Altitude, and do
    your test at that indicated Pressure Altitude on that particular day and
    time.

    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Carl Link
    Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 9:15 AM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com; Trae McElwaney
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    The book says 130 knots at 7000' and 75% power (2700RPM) and mine will do
    that. (probably not at gross weight). Many pilots tend to use one RPM and
    not consider the fact that the air is less dense at altitude. 2450 RPM is
    65% at 2500' and produces 116 knots. If you fly higher, and increase your
    RPM to maintain 65%, you'll go faster at the same fuel flow.

    Carl Link
    N3666Q
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Trae McElwaney
    To: musketeermail@ <mailto:musketeermail%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:49 PM
    Subject: [musketeermail] True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    Good day Musketeer mailers,
    I own a Musketeer A 23- 24 and I only get around 115 kts average. This plane
    advertises 130 kts in a perfect world, I don't quite understand how you get
    faster kts at higher altitudes, when I fly at higher altitudes, I seem to go
    a little slower if It changes much at all. I did expect to get at least 120
    kts average out of this plane.
    Then I read an article on a Sundowner with the 180 hp and it is supposed to
    get 125 kts. I guess I am just curious if this is normal for my plane? And I
    would like some real world numbers from actual owners.
    I would appreciate any comparisons from other Super Musketeer and other
    Musketeer / Sundowner owners.
    Thanks,
    T. M.

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  6. #6

    True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    A simple and quick test is to climb to 7000' level the plane and leave the power full. Let the speed stabilize and trim it level. You should be indicating 130 mph+-, which at 7000' is almost exactly 130 knots depending on OAT. I do it every once in a while to prove to myself that I'm not lying about my bird.

    Carl Link
    N3666Q
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Michael Rellihan
    To: 'Carl Link' ; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com ; 'Trae McElwaney'
    Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 8:35 AM
    Subject: RE: [musketeermail] True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner


    Carl is correct. And to clarify one more time, the speeds involved are Indicated Airspeed, True Airspeed, and Groundspeed. Basically (for our purposes), IAS (or Calibrated Airspeed/CAS) is what your gauge says.

    TAS is your IAS corrected for density altitude (pressure altitude and temperature). This is the ONLY speed that matters, if you are comparing performance, with others or as the result of changes (like an antenna removal).

    Groundspeed is TAS as affected by wind. It's nice to brag or complain about, but has nothing to do with measured or compared performance, other than using it in a carefully controlled way to validate your IAS/CAS.



    There are additional refinements to these statements, but they will serve as stated for the basic purposes. Most performance comparisons should be made at a specific density altitude, most commonly 7,500 or 8,000 feet. You can easily calculate the DA using any of the available tools; GPS, flight calculator, etc. This enables you to make generally valid comparisons even when conditions vary on different days. Just figure out what altitude you need to indicate, in order to achieve the desired Density Altitude, and do your test at that indicated Pressure Altitude on that particular day and time.




    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Link
    Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 9:15 AM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com; Trae McElwaney
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner



    The book says 130 knots at 7000' and 75% power (2700RPM) and mine will do that. (probably not at gross weight). Many pilots tend to use one RPM and not consider the fact that the air is less dense at altitude. 2450 RPM is 65% at 2500' and produces 116 knots. If you fly higher, and increase your RPM to maintain 65%, you'll go faster at the same fuel flow.

    Carl Link
    N3666Q
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Trae McElwaney
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:49 PM
    Subject: [musketeermail] True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    Good day Musketeer mailers,
    I own a Musketeer A 23- 24 and I only get around 115 kts average. This plane advertises 130 kts in a perfect world, I don't quite understand how you get faster kts at higher altitudes, when I fly at higher altitudes, I seem to go a little slower if It changes much at all. I did expect to get at least 120 kts average out of this plane.
    Then I read an article on a Sundowner with the 180 hp and it is supposed to get 125 kts. I guess I am just curious if this is normal for my plane? And I would like some real world numbers from actual owners.
    I would appreciate any comparisons from other Super Musketeer and other Musketeer / Sundowner owners.
    Thanks,
    T. M.

    ---------------------------------
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  7. #7

    True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    I am part owner in a Sierra with a high time engine. I recently reunited with an old Navy friend who flys brand "M". He also participates in that club's forum. He mentioned that there was a lot of discussion on power settings, and which settings were best for speed and economy. Apparently there was a general agreement that 2500 rpm the engine ran smoothest. I found that interesting as I was generally setting 24 square on the dials (where I could get 24 inches). TAS was generally around 132 kts. Yesterday I returned, alone and lightly loaded, from San Diego and tried 23" and 2500 rpm @ 5500 ft and peak EGT. With the OAT of 22 deg C the density altitude is about 7500 ft. Fuel flow was 8.5 gph and it indicated 123 kts. The true airspeed worked out to 139 kts on the whiz wheel. My highest cruise numbers todate. I noted that the True Airspeed Indicater installed in the panel, when PA is set with OAT indicated 136 kts. I don't know which is more accurate, the ASI or
    my trusty old Type MB-4A. Essentially we both fly the same airplane, except for the flipflop gear. I'm thinking that stowing the gear is worth more than 8 kts over the A23-24s book figure. But, I know it ain't worth 24 kts. You might try flying up to 8500 density altitude and firewalling the throttle (I think that is as high as you can gow and still get 75%), set rpm for 75% by the book (2700?) and record your paramenters. It will give you a base line to see if you're really way off the norm. If you are, I think you'll find plenty of advice in the BAC archives on what to do.

    I am not sure if the engine was really smoother at 2500, but it seemed to be and I didn't notice any noise difference from the 24 X 2400 I was previously using. But, I don't have a lot of exprience in the type, I am a low time Beech/Sierra pilot. Also, I agree with an earlier comment. During the 60s and 70s (and maybe today) most manufacturers would "speak with fork-ed tounge" when it comes to performance numbers.

    Marty Vanover
    Phoenix, Az.


    Trae McElwaney <gaboytm@yahoo.com> wrote:
    Good day Musketeer mailers,
    I own a Musketeer A 23- 24 and I only get around 115 kts average. This plane advertises 130 kts in a perfect world, I don't quite understand how you get faster kts at higher altitudes, when I fly at higher altitudes, I seem to go a little slower if It changes much at all. I did expect to get at least 120 kts average out of this plane.
    Then I read an article on a Sundowner with the 180 hp and it is supposed to get 125 kts. I guess I am just curious if this is normal for my plane? And I would like some real world numbers from actual owners.
    I would appreciate any comparisons from other Super Musketeer and other Musketeer / Sundowner owners.
    Thanks,
    T. M.


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  8. #8

    True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    Boy, I don't know what you guys are doing that I'm not, but I've owned
    a 1976 C23 for 12 years and I've rarely trued out at much over 115kts.
    Not with a newly overhauled engine. Not with aft ballast. And, yeah,
    I compute TAS on my GPS so I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right.

    With just me and light tanks I might get 2 or 3 kts more, but that's
    about it.

    Climb is next to impossible on a hot summer's day. I flew my 82 year
    old mother (150 pounds, I'd guess---and I'm 225) last weekend and we
    were climbing about 100 fpm over 6,000'. And, like I said, it wasn't
    much better when my engine was new.

    I'm hoping for big things from the Power Flow exhaust and wheel pants.
    I can't wait till the fly-in in Wichita to learn more.

    -Jim

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Link" <carllink@...> wrote:
    >
    > A simple and quick test is to climb to 7000' level the plane and
    leave the power full. Let the speed stabilize and trim it level. You
    should be indicating 130 mph+-, which at 7000' is almost exactly 130
    knots depending on OAT. I do it every once in a while to prove to
    myself that I'm not lying about my bird.
    >
    > Carl Link
    > N3666Q
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: Michael Rellihan
    > To: 'Carl Link' ; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com ; 'Trae McElwaney'
    > Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 8:35 AM
    > Subject: RE: [musketeermail] True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs
    Sundowner
    >
    >
    > Carl is correct. And to clarify one more time, the speeds
    involved are Indicated Airspeed, True Airspeed, and Groundspeed.
    Basically (for our purposes), IAS (or Calibrated Airspeed/CAS) is what
    your gauge says.
    >
    > TAS is your IAS corrected for density altitude (pressure altitude
    and temperature). This is the ONLY speed that matters, if you are
    comparing performance, with others or as the result of changes (like
    an antenna removal).
    >
    > Groundspeed is TAS as affected by wind. It's nice to brag or
    complain about, but has nothing to do with measured or compared
    performance, other than using it in a carefully controlled way to
    validate your IAS/CAS.
    >
    >
    >
    > There are additional refinements to these statements, but they
    will serve as stated for the basic purposes. Most performance
    comparisons should be made at a specific density altitude, most
    commonly 7,500 or 8,000 feet. You can easily calculate the DA using
    any of the available tools; GPS, flight calculator, etc. This enables
    you to make generally valid comparisons even when conditions vary on
    different days. Just figure out what altitude you need to indicate,
    in order to achieve the desired Density Altitude, and do your test at
    that indicated Pressure Altitude on that particular day and time.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    > From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Link
    > Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2006 9:15 AM
    > To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com; Trae McElwaney
    > Subject: Re: [musketeermail] True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs
    Sundowner
    >
    >
    >
    > The book says 130 knots at 7000' and 75% power (2700RPM) and mine
    will do that. (probably not at gross weight). Many pilots tend to use
    one RPM and not consider the fact that the air is less dense at
    altitude. 2450 RPM is 65% at 2500' and produces 116 knots. If you fly
    higher, and increase your RPM to maintain 65%, you'll go faster at the
    same fuel flow.
    >
    > Carl Link
    > N3666Q
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: Trae McElwaney
    > To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    > Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 7:49 PM
    > Subject: [musketeermail] True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs
    Sundowner
    >
    > Good day Musketeer mailers,
    > I own a Musketeer A 23- 24 and I only get around 115 kts average.
    This plane advertises 130 kts in a perfect world, I don't quite
    understand how you get faster kts at higher altitudes, when I fly at
    higher altitudes, I seem to go a little slower if It changes much at
    all. I did expect to get at least 120 kts average out of this plane.
    > Then I read an article on a Sundowner with the 180 hp and it is
    supposed to get 125 kts. I guess I am just curious if this is normal
    for my plane? And I would like some real world numbers from actual owners.
    > I would appreciate any comparisons from other Super Musketeer and
    other Musketeer / Sundowner owners.
    > Thanks,
    > T. M.
    >
    > ---------------------------------
    > Want to be your own boss? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
    >
    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    >
    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    >







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  9. #9

    True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    I've seen some quotes here from the POH on 'book' performance. I have
    three POH's, one in the airplane (the 'legal' one), one I bought years
    ago to have at home for reference, and one I bought off of Ebay a year
    ago. The first two have the same performace numbers, but the one I got
    from Ebay is different! It's actually the one that most closely matches
    my 1973 Sundowners performance.

    Examples:

    Legal Ebay
    2500' @ 2700RPM 126kt 119kt
    5500' @ 2500RPM 116kt 105kt
    7500' @ 2300RPM 102kt 88kt


    I don't know the last revision date of my 'legal' POH, but the copy that
    matches it is dated Dec 1991, and my Ebay copy is dated
    February 8, 1974. Both are for the C23 Sundowner 180.



    Trae McElwaney wrote:

    > Good day Musketeer mailers,
    > I own a Musketeer A 23- 24 and I only get around 115 kts average. This
    > plane advertises 130 kts in a perfect world, I don't quite understand
    > how you get faster kts at higher altitudes, when I fly at higher
    > altitudes, I seem to go a little slower if It changes much at all. I
    > did expect to get at least 120 kts average out of this plane.
    > Then I read an article on a Sundowner with the 180 hp and it is
    > supposed to get 125 kts. I guess I am just curious if this is normal
    > for my plane? And I would like some real world numbers from actual owners.
    > I would appreciate any comparisons from other Super Musketeer and
    > other Musketeer / Sundowner owners.
    > Thanks,
    > T. M.
    >
    >
    > ---------------------------------
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    >
    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    >
    >



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  10. #10

    True knots Musketeer A 23 / A23-24 vs Sundowner

    I have '78 C23 Sundowner (M-2066)

    I, too, have a back up POH at home to reference. I'm curious if my official
    in-plane version agrees.

    Anyway, this one at home was issued Feb 1979 (for M-1285 and after) and
    lists the following:

    (although 2500' would put me three thousand feet underground! I'll include
    it for comparison)





    Alt RPM BHP KTS/MPH

    ________________________________

    2500' @ 2700 88 124/143

    2500 73 113/130

    6500' @ 2300 58 96/110

    2500 67 109/126

    2688 79 121/139

    7500 @ 2300 57 95/109

    2500 66 109/125

    2680 77 120/138

    8500 @ 2300 57 94/108

    2500 65 108/124

    2670 75 119/136

    9500 @ 2300 57 93/106

    2500 64 107/123

    2662 73 117/135





    (hope my little column formatting holds up in the email)





    I usually cruise in the 2500-2600 RPM range and find the book numbers a
    little higher than I get although I seldom correct for TAS so actually
    they're probably quite close. VFR permitting, I'm taking off from Denver
    for Des Moines this Friday and will have a good opportunity to cross check.



    -Rick





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