Landing Advice Needed!

[Guest]

Hi,

As one who is new to low wing airplanes, I am finding that my musketeer seems to like to stay flying when I am interested in having her land. The ground affects are what makes the difference I guess between this plane and the Cessna's I am used to flying. This presents a problem in a strong cross wind, as with no steerable nose wheel, just using the rudder tends to make the plane want to drift. Although a little power might keep her straight, with only 2,000 ft of grass, I don't have a lot of extra room, and really hate to run out of runway.

Any feedback/advise/tips for bringing this plane down in a strong crosswind would be most welcome!

Thanks,
Dean

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[Guest]

If you are floating, you are too fast. Speed control is the key to
good landings in our planes. Learn to nail the book recommended
speed on final approach. It's not hard, even when it's gusty. In my
plane, a Super III, that is 81 mph. Not more, not less.

Also, use full flaps on every landing - something that Cessna
drivers (I used to be one of them!) tend to avoid. The flaps on our
planes are much less effective than on Cessnas. The first 2 notches
seem to provide more lift than drag, which contributes to floating.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Super III

--- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, Dean Imbeau <dean_484@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> As one who is new to low wing airplanes, I am finding that my
musketeer seems to like to stay flying when I am interested in
having her land. The ground affects are what makes the difference I
guess between this plane and the Cessna's I am used to flying. This
presents a problem in a strong cross wind, as with no steerable nose
wheel, just using the rudder tends to make the plane want to drift.
Although a little power might keep her straight, with only 2,000 ft
of grass, I don't have a lot of extra room, and really hate to run
out of runway.
>
> Any feedback/advise/tips for bringing this plane down in a strong
crosswind would be most welcome!
>
> Thanks,
> Dean
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>




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[Guest]

Dean,

As a long time BE-23 owner pilot and CFI, I have the following
advice for you:

1. Do not carry excess airspeed over the recommended approach speeds on
short final otherwise you will float and potentially run off the end of your 2000
foot grass field...with one exception: strong, gusty crosswinds and
headwinds may require a few extra knots for controllability. If headwinds are
present, that will help to decrease your landing distance (due to lower ground
speed) and offset the extra few knots you carried to counter the gusts.

2. Carry a small amount of power into the landing flare/landing eg.
1100-1200 RPM in a BE-23, to provide propwash over the stabilator and rudder and thus
increase their effectiveness to help you counter the gusts and our
Musketeer's known nose-heaviness (nose wheel first landings are a no-no anytime
especially on grass/soft fields). For a short field, pull the power completely off
as soon as you touch down (you may need to add power later to keep taxiing
on your grass field due to the rolling resistance of the grass).

3. In the case of a strong crosswind, don't forget to momentarily center
the rudder pedals as the nose comes down after touchdown as the combination of
aerodynamic rudder (still effective at high speed) AND nose wheel steering
may give you a directional excursion after the nose comes down. Ease in any
rudder pedal needed for directional control once on the grass. Increase the
aileron into the wind once on the ground to counter the crosswind to keep from
being blown sideways (because aerodynamic control surfaces become less effect
as you slow down). Any cross-controlling (aileron one way rudder the other)
in the air (side slip) or on the ground requires fighting the bungee
rudder-aileron interconnect incorporated into the Musketeer design (to "coordinate"
turns in the air). When practicing crosswind landings, don't exclusively do
touch and goes; during full stop landings you'll also practice maintaining
directional control as the aerodynamic surfaces lose their effectiveness as you
slow down during the landing roll.



Rick Poch,
CFI-A-I-MEI
BE-23 N2422M



**************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money &
Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)


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[smurray]

I have a Super III so result will vary between the variations.

I don't thnk landing a Musketeer is hard at all if you remember just one
thing, control your airspeed.

* The plane will float, enhanced by ground effect, if you have too
much airspeed. Hold it off the runway until the airspeed bleeds. Sometimes
I get a bit panic'd on a short runway but once that airspeed comes off
landing and stopping the plane is never a problem,
* Holding the plane off the runway can be a bit of an issue with these
nose heavy planes. This happens when you have too much airspeed, are trying
to hold the plane off, and then run out of elevator. If I feel I am running
out of elevator the key is always to add some power, for me 1500RPM does the
trick to regain control. Then as you regain elevator control, bleed power
off to nice landing. This will increase your landing distance 500-750ft.
* If you bounce the plane and your airspeed is 70 MPH or better go
around. Trying to save a landing after a bounce at high airspeed while
result in porpising and if your not on top of your game and add some power,
a nasty outcome.

Steve
N7991L


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[jwwaterman]

Good morning,

All of the above advice is good, especially about nailing your airspeed. One
other item which might help would be some ballast in the baggage area to
compensate for the nose heavy characteristic of our aircraft. We carry
about 100 lbs of water (properly strapped down of course) in the aft area.
This not only makes for much smoother landings, it is also a good supplement
to our survival kit (which is a really good idea when flying in the Rocky
Mountains.

John



From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Steven Murray
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:54 AM
To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [musketeermail] Re:Landing Advice Needed!



I have a Super III so result will vary between the variations.

I don't thnk landing a Musketeer is hard at all if you remember just one
thing, control your airspeed.

* The plane will float, enhanced by ground effect, if you have too
much airspeed. Hold it off the runway until the airspeed bleeds. Sometimes
I get a bit panic'd on a short runway but once that airspeed comes off
landing and stopping the plane is never a problem,
* Holding the plane off the runway can be a bit of an issue with these
nose heavy planes. This happens when you have too much airspeed, are trying
to hold the plane off, and then run out of elevator. If I feel I am running
out of elevator the key is always to add some power, for me 1500RPM does the
trick to regain control. Then as you regain elevator control, bleed power
off to nice landing. This will increase your landing distance 500-750ft.
* If you bounce the plane and your airspeed is 70 MPH or better go
around. Trying to save a landing after a bounce at high airspeed while
result in porpising and if your not on top of your game and add some power,
a nasty outcome.

Steve
N7991L

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Guest]

Good Morning All from a bluebird day in Tennessee.

I am curious to hear some opinions on flaps vs. no-flap landings. In the
C23 Sundowner we've found that with practice the landings are smoother and
better controlled with -0- flaps (particularly in crosswinds). Approach 80
knots slowing to 70 over the numbers with a slight flair - - aft ballast is
a plus. Seems to be the ticket. Excluding short field operations of course.

Bruce




"John Waterman"
<jwwaterman@comca
st.net> To
Sent by: "'Steven Murray'"
musketeermail@yah <stevenmurray@verizon.net>,
oogroups.com <musketeermail@yahoogroups.com>
cc

03/05/2008 09:47 Subject
AM RE: [musketeermail] Re:Landing
Advice Needed!












Good morning,

All of the above advice is good, especially about nailing your airspeed.
One
other item which might help would be some ballast in the baggage area to
compensate for the nose heavy characteristic of our aircraft. We carry
about 100 lbs of water (properly strapped down of course) in the aft area.
This not only makes for much smoother landings, it is also a good
supplement
to our survival kit (which is a really good idea when flying in the Rocky
Mountains.

John

From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Steven Murray
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:54 AM
To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [musketeermail] Re:Landing Advice Needed!

I have a Super III so result will vary between the variations.

I don't thnk landing a Musketeer is hard at all if you remember just one
thing, control your airspeed.

* The plane will float, enhanced by ground effect, if you have too
much airspeed. Hold it off the runway until the airspeed bleeds. Sometimes
I get a bit panic'd on a short runway but once that airspeed comes off
landing and stopping the plane is never a problem,
* Holding the plane off the runway can be a bit of an issue with these
nose heavy planes. This happens when you have too much airspeed, are trying
to hold the plane off, and then run out of elevator. If I feel I am running
out of elevator the key is always to add some power, for me 1500RPM does
the
trick to regain control. Then as you regain elevator control, bleed power
off to nice landing. This will increase your landing distance 500-750ft.
* If you bounce the plane and your airspeed is 70 MPH or better go
around. Trying to save a landing after a bounce at high airspeed while
result in porpising and if your not on top of your game and add some power,
a nasty outcome.

Steve
N7991L

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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[Guest]

My opinion is full flaps on just about every landing. A sandbag in the cargo
compartment isn't a bad idea unless you have rear seat passengers. Final
approach speed in a C-23 with full flaps should be nailed at 80 MPH. proper
landing technique will result in a perfect landing. as a charter pilot
flying in all kinds of conditions the only time I use less than full flaps
is if I am loaded up with ice on the unprotected surfaces. Crosswinds are
not a problem with flaps if proper technique is used. I talked to a guy once
that said all Sundowners should be flown onto the runway at 100 MPH with no
flaps. Point is, if landings are not going well get some instruction and
learn to do it correctly rather than improvising. The flaps are there for a
reason.



Randy





_____

From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of bruce.kerr@hecomfg.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 10:10 AM
To: John Waterman
Cc: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com; 'Steven Murray'
Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Re:Landing Advice Needed!



Good Morning All from a bluebird day in Tennessee.

I am curious to hear some opinions on flaps vs. no-flap landings. In the
C23 Sundowner we've found that with practice the landings are smoother and
better controlled with -0- flaps (particularly in crosswinds). Approach 80
knots slowing to 70 over the numbers with a slight flair - - aft ballast is
a plus. Seems to be the ticket. Excluding short field operations of course.

Bruce

"John Waterman"
<jwwaterman@comca
st.net> To
Sent by: "'Steven Murray'"
musketeermail@yah <stevenmurray@ <mailto:stevenmurray%40verizon.net>
verizon.net>,
oogroups.com <musketeermail@ <mailto:musketeermail%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com>
cc

03/05/2008 09:47 Subject
AM RE: [musketeermail] Re:Landing
Advice Needed!







Good morning,

All of the above advice is good, especially about nailing your airspeed.
One
other item which might help would be some ballast in the baggage area to
compensate for the nose heavy characteristic of our aircraft. We carry
about 100 lbs of water (properly strapped down of course) in the aft area.
This not only makes for much smoother landings, it is also a good
supplement
to our survival kit (which is a really good idea when flying in the Rocky
Mountains.

John

From: musketeermail@ <mailto:musketeermail%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@
<mailto:musketeermail%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Steven Murray
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:54 AM
To: musketeermail@ <mailto:musketeermail%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
Subject: [musketeermail] Re:Landing Advice Needed!

I have a Super III so result will vary between the variations.

I don't thnk landing a Musketeer is hard at all if you remember just one
thing, control your airspeed.

* The plane will float, enhanced by ground effect, if you have too
much airspeed. Hold it off the runway until the airspeed bleeds. Sometimes
I get a bit panic'd on a short runway but once that airspeed comes off
landing and stopping the plane is never a problem,
* Holding the plane off the runway can be a bit of an issue with these
nose heavy planes. This happens when you have too much airspeed, are trying
to hold the plane off, and then run out of elevator. If I feel I am running
out of elevator the key is always to add some power, for me 1500RPM does
the
trick to regain control. Then as you regain elevator control, bleed power
off to nice landing. This will increase your landing distance 500-750ft.
* If you bounce the plane and your airspeed is 70 MPH or better go
around. Trying to save a landing after a bounce at high airspeed while
result in porpising and if your not on top of your game and add some power,
a nasty outcome.

Steve
N7991L

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[jwwaterman]

Good morning all from a snowbound Denverite,

On our A23-24 I use full flaps except for high crosswinds. However, when
teaching someone to land the Musketeer, I start out with no flaps, then 1
notch, then 2 and then 3. It makes for a gentler landing with less flare
required. I do think that once the skill level is sufficient, landings
should be full flaps to obtain the steeper approach path.

John





From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of bruce.kerr@hecomfg.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 9:10 AM
To: John Waterman
Cc: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com; 'Steven Murray'
Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Re:Landing Advice Needed!



Good Morning All from a bluebird day in Tennessee.

I am curious to hear some opinions on flaps vs. no-flap landings. In the
C23 Sundowner we've found that with practice the landings are smoother and
better controlled with -0- flaps (particularly in crosswinds). Approach 80
knots slowing to 70 over the numbers with a slight flair - - aft ballast is
a plus. Seems to be the ticket. Excluding short field operations of course.

Bruce

"John Waterman"
<jwwaterman@comca
st.net> To
Sent by: "'Steven Murray'"
musketeermail@yah <stevenmurray@verizon.net
<mailto:stevenmurray%40verizon.net> >,
oogroups.com <musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:musketeermail%40yahoogroups.com> >
cc






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[smurray]

I have tried flaps vs no flaps and I do not see much difference (again Super
III) in my ability to do a nice landing; no flaps certainly extends the
amount of runway you will use. Where I am off of lake erie we can get some
pretty good cross winds. This is where a Musketeer shines beyond other in
same category. In a cross wind I carry a bit more airspeed, but not much
and still use full flaps. Using flaps keeps the nose down and I think that
is far better in a cross wind then having to fair with the nose is a greater
angle of attack.

However landings in a good crosswind is fun for me although I try not to be
too over confident and keep crosswind component at 20kts or less. I have
actually landed in a head wind of 40kts (constant) and frequently experience
20 gusting to 30 with a 30deg component.

Either way it still is about controlling airspeed throughout the approach
(stabilized approach works wonders). Typically in a cross wind (unless 90
deg) your ground speed is a lot slower and this allows for the slightly
higher airspeed. I think the bounce is all about forward speed at the time
of contact given that our gear is not all that absorbant of energy.

Steve
N7991L

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce.Kerr@hecomfg.com [mailto:Bruce.Kerr@hecomfg.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 11:10 AM
To: John Waterman
Cc: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com; 'Steven Murray'
Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Re:Landing Advice Needed!


Good Morning All from a bluebird day in Tennessee.

I am curious to hear some opinions on flaps vs. no-flap landings. In the C23
Sundowner we've found that with practice the landings are smoother and
better controlled with -0- flaps (particularly in crosswinds). Approach 80
knots slowing to 70 over the numbers with a slight flair - - aft ballast is
a plus. Seems to be the ticket. Excluding short field operations of course.

Bruce




"John Waterman"
<jwwaterman@comca
st.net> To
Sent by: "'Steven Murray'"
musketeermail@yah <stevenmurray@verizon.net>,
oogroups.com <musketeermail@yahoogroups.com>
cc

03/05/2008 09:47 Subject
AM RE: [musketeermail] Re:Landing
Advice Needed!












Good morning,

All of the above advice is good, especially about nailing your airspeed. One
other item which might help would be some ballast in the baggage area to
compensate for the nose heavy characteristic of our aircraft. We carry
about 100 lbs of water (properly strapped down of course) in the aft area.
This not only makes for much smoother landings, it is also a good supplement
to our survival kit (which is a really good idea when flying in the Rocky
Mountains.

John

From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Steven Murray
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 7:54 AM
To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [musketeermail] Re:Landing Advice Needed!

I have a Super III so result will vary between the variations.

I don't thnk landing a Musketeer is hard at all if you remember just one
thing, control your airspeed.

* The plane will float, enhanced by ground effect, if you have too much
airspeed. Hold it off the runway until the airspeed bleeds. Sometimes I get
a bit panic'd on a short runway but once that airspeed comes off landing and
stopping the plane is never a problem,
* Holding the plane off the runway can be a bit of an issue with these nose
heavy planes. This happens when you have too much airspeed, are trying to
hold the plane off, and then run out of elevator. If I feel I am running out
of elevator the key is always to add some power, for me 1500RPM does the
trick to regain control. Then as you regain elevator control, bleed power
off to nice landing. This will increase your landing distance 500-750ft.
* If you bounce the plane and your airspeed is 70 MPH or better go around.
Trying to save a landing after a bounce at high airspeed while result in
porpising and if your not on top of your game and add some power, a nasty
outcome.

Steve
N7991L

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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[wyofisher]

Less flaps when you are light. Otherwise, you might be trying to
touchdown too fast. I find 65-70mph with a touch of power work best
with my Super III. When I'm light, I use two notches of flaps.

Joe


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