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Thread: Soft-Short Field Takeoffs - A23A

  1. #1

    Soft-Short Field Takeoffs - A23A

    Good afternoon Willis,
    Interestingly enough, our originial POH (67 Super III with 200 hp) stated 1
    notch of flaps for short field and made the comment that some pilots had
    found that 2 notches might offer some greater improvement. Our current POH
    makes no mention of using flaps at all on a short field. There may have been
    some attorneys at work here. I would think the most important thing here
    would be your airspeed management to insure the best angle of climb.
    John

    -----Original Message-----
    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of WILLIS COOKE
    Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:34 PM
    To: flyingpole; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] Soft-Short Field Takeoffs - A23A


    I have not done any scientific performance tests but after 12 years and 600
    or so hours in an A23 with the 165HP Continental I would think that one
    notch of flaps would be a bit better than two. I have observed that the
    stall speed drops about 6 knots with one notch of flaps and only about 1
    more knot with two notches. The sink rate on landing is quite a bit higher
    with two notches. The third notch doesn't do enough to notice with the
    stall speed but adds a lot to the sink. Maybe you could find a longer grass
    runway with no trees at the end to do a little performance testing.

    Good luck, Willis

    flyingpole <flyingpole@yahoo.com> wrote:
    I searched the archives and couldn't find any direct answer, so I ask
    anyone with knowledge or experience for help.

    I have a 1966 A23A with the Continental 165HP engine. I purchased
    some land in northern Wisconsin that allows me to fly to my happy
    place rather than drive 3.5 hrs. I have a 2,500 foot grass strip to
    work with and have been flying in and out for a few months. The
    problem is that on one end of runway 27 (most used runway because of
    the prevailing westerly winds) there are 120' high trees which
    represent the edge of a national forest.

    Problem is, my POH has absolutely no information relating to soft or
    short field operations. I've been using two notches of flaps and
    doing full performance takeoffs, but don't know if that is the optimum
    setup. That is the way I was trained in my Cherokee 180 I used to
    own. I've been lucky that this is a dry year and the turf is very
    hard. I'm worried that I won't clear the trees if the turf is softer
    after a rain. etc. or I am more heavily loaded.



    Has anyone performed any testing to see what setup gives the most
    optimum-shortest takoff and obsticle clearance?

    Any help would be appreciated.









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  2. #2
    Orbiting Earth Orbiting Earth corcoran's Avatar
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    Soft-Short Field Takeoffs - A23A

    You can probably clear 120' easily from your grass runway. HOWEVER...

    Soft grass runways produce performance minimum/maximum requirements which are not in our POH's. As reference see: "Musketeers Do Not Float" on the BAC website.

    Tom Corcoran
    Boston and Prince Edward Island, Canada


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  3. #3

    Soft-Short Field Takeoffs - A23A

    Take a look at:

    http://www.canyonflying.com/takeoffs.html

    for some ideas. While primarily concerned with mountain flying, it
    may give you some techniques to consider.

    Hope this helps.

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "flyingpole" <flyingpole@y...>
    wrote:
    > I searched the archives and couldn't find any direct answer, so I
    ask
    > anyone with knowledge or experience for help.
    >
    > I have a 1966 A23A with the Continental 165HP engine. I purchased
    > some land in northern Wisconsin that allows me to fly to my happy
    > place rather than drive 3.5 hrs. I have a 2,500 foot grass strip
    to
    > work with and have been flying in and out for a few months. The
    > problem is that on one end of runway 27 (most used runway because
    of
    > the prevailing westerly winds) there are 120' high trees which
    > represent the edge of a national forest.
    >
    > Problem is, my POH has absolutely no information relating to soft
    or
    > short field operations. I've been using two notches of flaps and
    > doing full performance takeoffs, but don't know if that is the
    optimum
    > setup. That is the way I was trained in my Cherokee 180 I used to
    > own. I've been lucky that this is a dry year and the turf is very
    > hard. I'm worried that I won't clear the trees if the turf is
    softer
    > after a rain. etc. or I am more heavily loaded.
    >
    >
    >
    > Has anyone performed any testing to see what setup gives the most
    > optimum-shortest takoff and obsticle clearance?
    >
    > Any help would be appreciated.





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  4. #4

    Soft-Short Field Takeoffs - A23A

    I think that everyone that has done this a few times
    will agree. 2 notches will get you into the air
    faster, but once there, you won't actually go
    anywhere. 1 notch will get you into the air
    relatively quick, and still give you the extra
    performance needed for a climb out.

    Jay

    --- John Waterman <jwwaterman@comcast.net> wrote:

    > Good afternoon Willis,
    > Interestingly enough, our originial POH (67 Super
    > III with 200 hp) stated 1
    > notch of flaps for short field and made the comment
    > that some pilots had
    > found that 2 notches might offer some greater
    > improvement. Our current POH
    > makes no mention of using flaps at all on a short
    > field. There may have been
    > some attorneys at work here. I would think the most
    > important thing here
    > would be your airspeed management to insure the best
    > angle of climb.
    > John
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    > [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    > On Behalf Of WILLIS COOKE
    > Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:34 PM
    > To: flyingpole; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    > Subject: Re: [musketeermail] Soft-Short Field
    > Takeoffs - A23A
    >
    >
    > I have not done any scientific performance tests but
    > after 12 years and 600
    > or so hours in an A23 with the 165HP Continental I
    > would think that one
    > notch of flaps would be a bit better than two. I
    > have observed that the
    > stall speed drops about 6 knots with one notch of
    > flaps and only about 1
    > more knot with two notches. The sink rate on
    > landing is quite a bit higher
    > with two notches. The third notch doesn't do enough
    > to notice with the
    > stall speed but adds a lot to the sink. Maybe you
    > could find a longer grass
    > runway with no trees at the end to do a little
    > performance testing.
    >
    > Good luck, Willis
    >
    > flyingpole <flyingpole@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > I searched the archives and couldn't find any direct
    > answer, so I ask
    > anyone with knowledge or experience for help.
    >
    > I have a 1966 A23A with the Continental 165HP
    > engine. I purchased
    > some land in northern Wisconsin that allows me to
    > fly to my happy
    > place rather than drive 3.5 hrs. I have a 2,500 foot
    > grass strip to
    > work with and have been flying in and out for a few
    > months. The
    > problem is that on one end of runway 27 (most used
    > runway because of
    > the prevailing westerly winds) there are 120' high
    > trees which
    > represent the edge of a national forest.
    >
    > Problem is, my POH has absolutely no information
    > relating to soft or
    > short field operations. I've been using two notches
    > of flaps and
    > doing full performance takeoffs, but don't know if
    > that is the optimum
    > setup. That is the way I was trained in my Cherokee
    > 180 I used to
    > own. I've been lucky that this is a dry year and the
    > turf is very
    > hard. I'm worried that I won't clear the trees if
    > the turf is softer
    > after a rain. etc. or I am more heavily loaded.
    >
    >
    >
    > Has anyone performed any testing to see what setup
    > gives the most
    > optimum-shortest takoff and obsticle clearance?
    >
    > Any help would be appreciated.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club
    > for the Musketeer series!
    >
    > www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
    > removed]
    >
    >
    >
    > Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club
    > for the Musketeer series!
    >
    > www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
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