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Thread: No start on Engine #1

  1. #1

    No start on Engine #1

    Today, when I engaged the ignition all that I heard was a type whine
    and a light knocking sound.

    Reached under the panel to the fire wall and felt the noise and
    location of the knocking. On the engine side of the firewall it
    seemed to correspond to the Starter Vibrator.

    Notes

    Prop did not turn.

    Battery seemed OK

    Fuel pump worked

    No noise whatsoever from the engine.

    Any thoughts?

    Thank you in advance.

    8786M







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  2. #2

    No start on Engine #1

    It sounds like you have an IO346 engine, but you
    didn't say. If so, the vibrator has nothing to do
    with whether the prop turns or not. I will keep the
    engine from starting, but the prop will turn. The
    IO346 starter turns a spring which tightens around a
    drum that connects to the engine by a gear to turn it
    over. If the spring is broken you will hear the
    starter turn, but the spring will not tighten around
    the drum and drive the engine.

    The bad news is that the part to fix the problem is
    over a grand and it takes a mechanic that has done the
    change before about two days. You have to hang the
    engine on a hoist and remove the Lord mounts then pull
    the right lower engine mount arm to get the adapter
    off.

    Willis, N8886M

    --- jm8995 <jm8995@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > Today, when I engaged the ignition all that I heard
    > was a type whine
    > and a light knocking sound.
    >
    > Reached under the panel to the fire wall and felt
    > the noise and
    > location of the knocking. On the engine side of the
    > firewall it
    > seemed to correspond to the Starter Vibrator.
    >
    > Notes
    >
    > Prop did not turn.
    >
    > Battery seemed OK
    >
    > Fuel pump worked
    >
    > No noise whatsoever from the engine.
    >
    > Any thoughts?
    >
    > Thank you in advance.
    >
    > 8786M
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
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    >
    >
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    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



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  3. #3

    No start on Engine #1

    It took a few minutes of sleuthing through the FAA records to confirm you
    have an A23, which is IO-346A Continental powered. (Helps the
    troubleshooter to know the model of your plane and engine...)

    >Today, when I engaged the ignition all that I heard was a type whine
    >and a light knocking sound.

    Sounds like Willis Cooke's comment may be right on target. If the starter
    drive on the engine is not engaging, then the motor will spin, and make a
    whine, and the drive clutch MAY make noise as the broken/stripped parts
    flop around in the housing.

    While I'd say that Willis' time estimate is generous, the costs and actual
    method are right on.

    Note also that if you have not already replaced it, that you will have to
    replace the RR engine mounting bracket/leg casting. Its mandated by AD
    95-03-14 - Engine mount cracks which supercedes AD 94-09-07 - Engine mount
    brackets. If you remove it for any reason, you must replace it, so be sure
    to have one on hand (from a Continental Dealer) before you start the actual
    engine teardown work.

    >Reached under the panel to the fire wall and felt the noise and
    >location of the knocking. On the engine side of the firewall it
    >seemed to correspond to the Starter Vibrator.

    While the vibrator can make some noise, it is usually a buzz, not a
    knocking sound.

    An other failure that can give similar symptoms is the Starting Vibrator
    makes a "whine" and the starter solenoid on the firewall makes a chattering
    or knocking sound as it repeatedly makes the contacts and the load of the
    starter is too great (weak battery or loose connection) and the voltage
    drops, allowing the solenoid to fall out, and then the load is gone and the
    solenoid pulls back in.

    It can sound like someone rapidly tapping on the firewall with a small hammer.

    >Prop did not turn.

    This is possible with either failure mode.

    >Battery seemed OK

    "Seemed" OK? As in you did a hydrometer test for the specific gravity or
    you put it on a charger and saw little load? While you are down for
    maintenance, pull the battery, have it checked for specific gravity, charge
    it fully, load test it, and then re-charge it fully before installing it
    again. Also good time to clean out battery box with baking soda and water
    to kill the acid.

    >Fuel pump worked

    Not much load there, and its run up to pressure before the starter is engaged.

    >No noise whatsoever from the engine.

    It won't make any (except the drive clutch and the starter motor) if its
    not turning over. Its an easy test to take the power wire off the starter
    motor and then try to start it again. Same sounds? NOT the starter and
    drive adapter. (Yea!)

    Bob Steward, A&P IA
    Birmingham, AL



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  4. #4

    No start on Engine #1

    I have a good bit of experience with this failure
    having changed my starter adapter 5 times. Two days
    is what it takes me to change the adapter not on the
    clock and not busting ---. I expect that you are a
    much faster mechanic than I am and could do it in
    maybe half the time that I can. Who knows how fast
    the mechanic that gets the job will be?

    --- Bob Steward <n76lima@mindspring.com> wrote:

    > It took a few minutes of sleuthing through the FAA
    > records to confirm you
    > have an A23, which is IO-346A Continental powered.
    > (Helps the
    > troubleshooter to know the model of your plane and
    > engine...)
    >
    > >Today, when I engaged the ignition all that I heard
    > was a type whine
    > >and a light knocking sound.
    >
    > Sounds like Willis Cooke's comment may be right on
    > target. If the starter
    > drive on the engine is not engaging, then the motor
    > will spin, and make a
    > whine, and the drive clutch MAY make noise as the
    > broken/stripped parts
    > flop around in the housing.
    >
    > While I'd say that Willis' time estimate is
    > generous, the costs and actual
    > method are right on.
    >
    > Note also that if you have not already replaced it,
    > that you will have to
    > replace the RR engine mounting bracket/leg casting.
    > Its mandated by AD
    > 95-03-14 - Engine mount cracks which supercedes AD
    > 94-09-07 - Engine mount
    > brackets. If you remove it for any reason, you must
    > replace it, so be sure
    > to have one on hand (from a Continental Dealer)
    > before you start the actual
    > engine teardown work.
    >
    > >Reached under the panel to the fire wall and felt
    > the noise and
    > >location of the knocking. On the engine side of
    > the firewall it
    > >seemed to correspond to the Starter Vibrator.
    >
    > While the vibrator can make some noise, it is
    > usually a buzz, not a
    > knocking sound.
    >
    > An other failure that can give similar symptoms is
    > the Starting Vibrator
    > makes a "whine" and the starter solenoid on the
    > firewall makes a chattering
    > or knocking sound as it repeatedly makes the
    > contacts and the load of the
    > starter is too great (weak battery or loose
    > connection) and the voltage
    > drops, allowing the solenoid to fall out, and then
    > the load is gone and the
    > solenoid pulls back in.
    >
    > It can sound like someone rapidly tapping on the
    > firewall with a small hammer.
    >
    > >Prop did not turn.
    >
    > This is possible with either failure mode.
    >
    > >Battery seemed OK
    >
    > "Seemed" OK? As in you did a hydrometer test for
    > the specific gravity or
    > you put it on a charger and saw little load? While
    > you are down for
    > maintenance, pull the battery, have it checked for
    > specific gravity, charge
    > it fully, load test it, and then re-charge it fully
    > before installing it
    > again. Also good time to clean out battery box with
    > baking soda and water
    > to kill the acid.
    >
    > >Fuel pump worked
    >
    > Not much load there, and its run up to pressure
    > before the starter is engaged.
    >
    > >No noise whatsoever from the engine.
    >
    > It won't make any (except the drive clutch and the
    > starter motor) if its
    > not turning over. Its an easy test to take the
    > power wire off the starter
    > motor and then try to start it again. Same sounds?
    > NOT the starter and
    > drive adapter. (Yea!)
    >
    > Bob Steward, A&P IA
    > Birmingham, AL
    >
    >
    >
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    >
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    >
    >
    > musketeermail-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



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  5. #5

    No Start on Engine #1

    Thank you all very much for your insight. It really helps a novice
    like me.

    I did not sound like the starter was engaging at all.

    The comment about a knocking sound on the firewall seemed very close t
    what was experienced. There was no noise from anywhere else, but I
    need to check again as well as the overall health of the batery.

    Thanks everyone

    8786M





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  6. #6

    No Start on Engine #1

    When the clutch spring is broken you will not hear a
    lot of noise. The starter runs but sounds like an
    electric motor running instead of the engine cranking.
    The broken spring could make a knocking sound,
    depending on how it broke. The starter and adapter
    are near the firewall on the co-pilot side.

    --- jm8995 <jm8995@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > Thank you all very much for your insight. It really
    > helps a novice
    > like me.
    >
    > I did not sound like the starter was engaging at
    > all.
    >
    > The comment about a knocking sound on the firewall
    > seemed very close t
    > what was experienced. There was no noise from
    > anywhere else, but I
    > need to check again as well as the overall health of
    > the batery.
    >
    > Thanks everyone
    >
    > 8786M
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
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    >
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    >
    >
    > musketeermail-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



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  7. #7

    No Start on Engine #1

    To add to Bob's and Willis's comments:
    http://www.sacskyranch.com/eng218.htm

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: jm8995
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 10:17 PM
    Subject: [musketeermail] No Start on Engine #1


    Thank you all very much for your insight. It really helps a novice
    like me.

    I did not sound like the starter was engaging at all.

    The comment about a knocking sound on the firewall seemed very close t
    what was experienced. There was no noise from anywhere else, but I
    need to check again as well as the overall health of the batery.

    Thanks everyone

    8786M

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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  8. #8

    No start on Engine #1

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, WILLIS COOKE <wrcooke@f...> wrote:
    >I have a good bit of experience with this failure
    having changed my starter adapter 5 times.

    Sounds like a nightmare. Any more info?

    jon






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  9. #9

    No start on Engine #1

    It was not pleasant. The worst part was dreading
    every engine start attempt for five years. What sort
    of info would you like? I have written about it on
    this forum several times with a lot of detail over the
    years.

    --- jon simik <bigbajon@aol.com> wrote:

    > --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, WILLIS COOKE
    > <wrcooke@f...> wrote:
    > >I have a good bit of experience with this failure
    > having changed my starter adapter 5 times.
    >
    > Sounds like a nightmare. Any more info?
    >
    > jon
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
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    >
    >
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    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



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  10. #10

    No start on Engine #1

    Remeber reading many (perhaps not all)of the posts and lotsa
    problems. Don't think I quite got what was going on (or forget).

    Suppose I was looking for a quick answer

    Was it the spring that kept breaking & what was the solution?
    I'll have a look at the archs.

    jon

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, WILLIS COOKE <wrcooke@f...> wrote:
    > It was not pleasant. The worst part was dreading
    > every engine start attempt for five years. What sort
    > of info would you like? I have written about it on
    > this forum several times with a lot of detail over the
    > years.

    > > --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, WILLIS COOKE
    > > <wrcooke@f...> wrote:
    > > >I have a good bit of experience with this failure
    > > having changed my starter adapter 5 times.
    > >
    > > Sounds like a nightmare. Any more info?
    > > jon




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