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Thread: Armchair quarterback on floating a Musketeer

  1. #1
    Orbiting Earth Orbiting Earth corcoran's Avatar
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    Armchair quarterback on floating a Musketeer

    Fellow Musketeer Pilots,

    This is a personal reply to a personal attack.

    Below, writer Joseph Gaspard (I use his name because he chose to use mine) indicates that a water ditching is more survivable for Musketeer pilots than landing on a beach or many other places. I disagree because my Musketeer sank quickly upon an ocean landing.

    I take issue with his personal characterasations about a lack of "any...facts" and insinuation that perhaps the event was not as reported. If you scroll down you will see that my name, a date and place were posted on MM for all to see.

    I have participated in plenty of conversation here on the subject.

    As for the photo... it was taken as the tide went out and the airplane was being recovered. Pownal Bay in Canada has tides which range from no-water to ten-feet-deep. It is a phenomenon at that latitude. The plane sank quickly and the only thing visible shortly after was the tail strobe on the top of the verticle stabilizer. If Mr. Gaspard (who has never interviewed me) wants to call me "some guy on the Beech website" that's his business. I am not anonymous to most people here and am well known and a founder of Beech Aero Club.

    For facts, Mr. Gaspard should go to the NTSB (which he loves to quote so much)... the correct NTSB... in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. Or ask the Royal Canadian Mounted Police who were at the scene.

    I am not so annoyed at this personal and unnecessary and unfriendly attack as I am in J. Gaspard taking my brother and sister Musketeer pilots down a path that leads them to minimize the serious dangers of a water landing.

    Go read "Musketeers Do Not Float" at beechaeroclub.org. I can assure you no fact is embellished nor misrepresented and that I consider landing on water "not an option".

    I am sorry if J. Gaspard thinks it is poorly written. I prefer to bite-this-bullet and endure the damage to my pride and ego so than my Musketeer colleagues might make their own educated choices which may save their lives.

    Tom Corcoran
    Braintree (Boston) Mass.
    N5162M, formerly N6145N
    mediareps@aol.com



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Joseph Gaspard <jgaspard@citynetworksolutions.com>
    To: 'ajpcps' <ajpcps@yahoo.com>; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:33:57 -0700
    Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Re: Cool Airport


    Great. An unsubstantiated story by some guy on the Beech website that
    doesn't mention the tail number, pilots name, actual date of the event or
    any other facts to support his assumptions, or give us the ability to look
    it up ourselves. Oh, did I forget to mention the two photos that seem to
    suggest the aircraft isn't in water deep enough to come to the author's
    conclusions in the first place?

    I'd rather trust the opinion of the experts at the NTSB and the FAA
    investigators who actually go to these scenes and talk about it at FSS
    briefings we get multiple times a year. They have a bit more basis in
    reality to them than a poorly written, un-researched article posted on a web
    site without any editorial oversight. Could the aircraft have sunk quickly?
    Yes. Could it have floated for 20-30 minutes? Yes. Could the pilot have just
    been in a wild panic to get out of the aircraft and telling tall tails about
    how fast it was sinking? Maybe, who knows? His judgment immediately before
    the accident was certainly questionable, so I would tend to question his
    judgment afterwards unless the facts supported him.

    Comparing ditching by an airliner to your beech is just plain silly. A 767
    weighs 345,000 pounds, a 747 about 835,000 pounds, both depending on cargo
    and fuel. A 747 stalls at about 180-200 knots. You weigh the comparative
    equivalent of a gnat and even fully loaded, will probably touch the water at
    less than 35 knots after flair.

    No matter how much logic I apply to this, however, you will still continue
    to hold onto you opinion. It's human nature. You owe it to yourself not to
    believe me or this Tom Corcoran guy. Look it up. The facts are all there,
    on-line at the NTSB, the FAA and many other authoritative sites.

    http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
    http://www.faa.gov/safety/data_statistics/nasdac
    http://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com

    And finally, Paul Bertorelli, a rather highly regarded Key West pilot and
    aviation writer associated with Douglas Ritter (another respected aviation
    journalist and pilot) and Aviation Consumer News, sums everything up quite
    nicely, with supporting facts, in a 1999 article for Aviation Safety
    Magazine: http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm . The FSDO here in San
    Diego cites this article as authoritative in their water emergency seminars,
    which you can also find on-line.

    My point to all of this? Stop spreading panic. If pilots assume the cannot
    survive, they won't be prepared. Ditching an aircraft is not only VERY
    survivable but may be a much better alternative than a beach or other hard
    surface when faced with an emergency. As pilots, we own it to ourselves and
    our passengers to make the best possible decisions in the worse possible
    situations. Be prepared (Dual-cell life vests, raft, flares, appropriate
    clothing) to do what it takes to survive afterwards, which should be of much
    greater concern.


    Joseph
    N9758L



    -----Original Message-----
    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of ajpcps
    Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 7:09 AM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [musketeermail] Re: Cool Airport

    From Musketeer mail Tom Corcoran of Boston wrote:
    >>July 26, 2003 Pownal Bay, Prince Edward Island, Canada:

    >>Musketeers do not float! You have a minute to get everyone out the
    >>(one) door. Water landings are not an option.

    >>I did not flip upside down. I can only guess it's worse.

    >>Tom Corcoran
    >>Boston

    Directly applicable experience (Bad) about floating airplanes, particularly
    Musketeers.

    Whether you flip or not depnds on a lot of factors, however airliners do NOT
    ditch in open water with their landing gear down.







    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org


    Yahoo! Groups Links






    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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  2. #2

    Armchair quarterback on floating a Musketeer

    OK, folks, lets ease up. I tried to head this off earlier. We're all
    friends here. Everyone has personal interests that create triggers more
    likely to fire them up. Lets just all learn from both Tom's experiences and
    the NTSB feedback.



    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of mediareps@aol.com
    Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 1:48 PM
    To: jgaspard@citynetworksolutions.com; ajpcps@yahoo.com;
    musketeermail@yahoogroups.com; bac-mail@beechareoclub.org
    Subject: [musketeermail] Armchair quarterback on floating a Musketeer



    Fellow Musketeer Pilots,

    This is a personal reply to a personal attack.

    Below, writer Joseph Gaspard (I use his name because he chose to use mine)
    indicates that a water ditching is more survivable for Musketeer pilots than
    landing on a beach or many other places. I disagree because my Musketeer
    sank quickly upon an ocean landing.

    I take issue with his personal characterasations about a lack of
    "any...facts" and insinuation that perhaps the event was not as reported. If
    you scroll down you will see that my name, a date and place were posted on
    MM for all to see.

    I have participated in plenty of conversation here on the subject.

    As for the photo... it was taken as the tide went out and the airplane was
    being recovered. Pownal Bay in Canada has tides which range from no-water to
    ten-feet-deep. It is a phenomenon at that latitude. The plane sank quickly
    and the only thing visible shortly after was the tail strobe on the top of
    the verticle stabilizer. If Mr. Gaspard (who has never interviewed me) wants
    to call me "some guy on the Beech website" that's his business. I am not
    anonymous to most people here and am well known and a founder of Beech Aero
    Club.

    For facts, Mr. Gaspard should go to the NTSB (which he loves to quote so
    much)... the correct NTSB... in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada. Or ask the
    Royal Canadian Mounted Police who were at the scene.

    I am not so annoyed at this personal and unnecessary and unfriendly attack
    as I am in J. Gaspard taking my brother and sister Musketeer pilots down a
    path that leads them to minimize the serious dangers of a water landing.

    Go read "Musketeers Do Not Float" at beechaeroclub.org. I can assure you no
    fact is embellished nor misrepresented and that I consider landing on water
    "not an option".

    I am sorry if J. Gaspard thinks it is poorly written. I prefer to
    bite-this-bullet and endure the damage to my pride and ego so than my
    Musketeer colleagues might make their own educated choices which may save
    their lives.

    Tom Corcoran
    Braintree (Boston) Mass.
    N5162M, formerly N6145N
    mediareps@aol.com



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Joseph Gaspard <jgaspard@citynetworksolutions.com>
    To: 'ajpcps' <ajpcps@yahoo.com>; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 09:33:57 -0700
    Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Re: Cool Airport


    Great. An unsubstantiated story by some guy on the Beech website that
    doesn't mention the tail number, pilots name, actual date of the event or
    any other facts to support his assumptions, or give us the ability to look
    it up ourselves. Oh, did I forget to mention the two photos that seem to
    suggest the aircraft isn't in water deep enough to come to the author's
    conclusions in the first place?

    I'd rather trust the opinion of the experts at the NTSB and the FAA
    investigators who actually go to these scenes and talk about it at FSS
    briefings we get multiple times a year. They have a bit more basis in
    reality to them than a poorly written, un-researched article posted on a web
    site without any editorial oversight. Could the aircraft have sunk quickly?
    Yes. Could it have floated for 20-30 minutes? Yes. Could the pilot have just
    been in a wild panic to get out of the aircraft and telling tall tails about
    how fast it was sinking? Maybe, who knows? His judgment immediately before
    the accident was certainly questionable, so I would tend to question his
    judgment afterwards unless the facts supported him.

    Comparing ditching by an airliner to your beech is just plain silly. A 767
    weighs 345,000 pounds, a 747 about 835,000 pounds, both depending on cargo
    and fuel. A 747 stalls at about 180-200 knots. You weigh the comparative
    equivalent of a gnat and even fully loaded, will probably touch the water at
    less than 35 knots after flair.

    No matter how much logic I apply to this, however, you will still continue
    to hold onto you opinion. It's human nature. You owe it to yourself not to
    believe me or this Tom Corcoran guy. Look it up. The facts are all there,
    on-line at the NTSB, the FAA and many other authoritative sites.

    http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
    http://www.faa.gov/safety/data_statistics/nasdac
    http://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com

    And finally, Paul Bertorelli, a rather highly regarded Key West pilot and
    aviation writer associated with Douglas Ritter (another respected aviation
    journalist and pilot) and Aviation Consumer News, sums everything up quite
    nicely, with supporting facts, in a 1999 article for Aviation Safety
    Magazine: http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm . The FSDO here in San
    Diego cites this article as authoritative in their water emergency seminars,
    which you can also find on-line.

    My point to all of this? Stop spreading panic. If pilots assume the cannot
    survive, they won't be prepared. Ditching an aircraft is not only VERY
    survivable but may be a much better alternative than a beach or other hard
    surface when faced with an emergency. As pilots, we own it to ourselves and
    our passengers to make the best possible decisions in the worse possible
    situations. Be prepared (Dual-cell life vests, raft, flares, appropriate
    clothing) to do what it takes to survive afterwards, which should be of much
    greater concern.


    Joseph
    N9758L



    -----Original Message-----
    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of ajpcps
    Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 7:09 AM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [musketeermail] Re: Cool Airport

    >From Musketeer mail Tom Corcoran of Boston wrote:
    >>July 26, 2003 Pownal Bay, Prince Edward Island, Canada:

    >>Musketeers do not float! You have a minute to get everyone out the
    >>(one) door. Water landings are not an option.

    >>I did not flip upside down. I can only guess it's worse.

    >>Tom Corcoran
    >>Boston

    Directly applicable experience (Bad) about floating airplanes, particularly
    Musketeers.

    Whether you flip or not depnds on a lot of factors, however airliners do NOT
    ditch in open water with their landing gear down.







    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org


    Yahoo! Groups Links






    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org






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  3. #3

    Armchair quarterback on floating a Musketeer

    Tom,
    Your comments are "Right on!"
    Yours was the definitive report,in my book. When I read your "Musketeers Do
    Not Float" some time ago,it certainly changed my assumptions ,and is
    valuable,and the only,relevant information on the subject to us
    Mouseketeers.
    Ray Griffin

    -----Original Message-----
    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of mediareps@aol.com
    Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 10:48 AM
    To: jgaspard@citynetworksolutions.com; ajpcps@yahoo.com;
    musketeermail@yahoogroups.com; bac-mail@beechareoclub.org
    Subject: [musketeermail] Armchair quarterback on floating a Musketeer


    Fellow Musketeer Pilots,

    This is a personal reply to a personal attack.

    Below, writer Joseph Gaspard (I use his name because he chose to use mine)
    indicates that a water ditching is more survivable for Musketeer pilots than
    landing on a beach or many other places. I disagree because my Musketeer
    sank quickly upon an ocean landing.

    I take issue with his personal characterasations about a lack of
    "any...facts" and insinuation that perhaps the event was not as reported. If
    you scroll down you will see that my name, a date and place were posted on
    MM for all to see.

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



    -----------------------






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    --------------------------------------------------------------------~->

    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org


    Yahoo! Groups Links

    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/musketeermail/

    <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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  4. #4

    Armchair quarterback on floating a Musketeer

    BRAVO MIKE & TOM!! About 30 years ago, I lost a good friend to a water landing, and I know what is involved! By the way, if the party has any doubts about drastic tide fluctuations, refer him to the Bay of Fundy!! (hope I spelled that right!) Lee Robinson
    >
    > From: "Mike Rellihan" <rellihan@rellihan.com>
    > Date: 2005/10/09 Sun PM 02:09:55 EDT
    > To: <mediareps@aol.com>,
    > <jgaspard@citynetworksolutions.com>,
    > <ajpcps@yahoo.com>,
    > <musketeermail@yahoogroups.com>,
    > <bac-mail@beechareoclub.org>
    > Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Armchair quarterback on floating a Musketeer
    >
    >



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