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Thread: Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)

  1. #1

    Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)

    I知 trying to recruit volunteers for two projects that I知 planning for next year. One is an STC Working Group. The other is to produce a video and BAC Talk article of a donut change.

    The STC Working Group might tackle one or more of a variety of projects. These might include wheel pants, flap or aileron gap seals, engine conversions, mogas STC, other speed mods, not sure what else. We would need people with various skills and talents: engineering, fabrication, knowledge of FAA regulations and procedures, technical documentation, drafting, photography, not sure what else.

    For the donut change I知 planning to change the donuts on Minnie some time after the first of the year. I think are all original 1963 except one set so Minnie痴 27 previous owners and I have gotten our money痴 worth. Bob Steward will do the donut change and give his insights into the procedure. AEC, the manufacturer of the PMA donuts, may also participate in this venture. I知 also planning to do an article for the BAC Talk on the donut change. I値l need help photographing (video and digital camera) the process. May also need help with audio and lighting. The video will be made available to BAC members.

    If you have interest in participating in either or both of these projects e-mail me at cloydvanhook@yahoo.com and let me know what you can contribute.



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  2. #2

    Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)

    I am good for some cash sense I do not have the credentials you are looking for. Richard Grimes

    -----Original Message-----
    From: "cloyd vanhook" <cloydvanhook@yahoo.com>
    Sent: 11/30/05 4:52:10 PM
    To: "BAC Mail" <bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org>
    Subject: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)


    I?m
    I?m trying to recruit volunteers for two projects that I?m planning for next year. One is an STC Working Group. The other is to produce a video and BAC Talk article of a donut change.

    The STC Working Group might tackle one or more of a variety of projects. These might include wheel pants, flap or aileron gap seals, engine conversions, mogas STC, other speed mods, not sure what else. We would need people with various skills and talents: engineering, fabrication, knowledge of FAA regulations and procedures, technical documentation, drafting, photography, not sure what else.

    For the donut change I?m planning to change the donuts on Minnie some time after the first of the year. I think are all original 1963 except one set so Minnie?s 27 previous owners and I have gotten our money?s worth. Bob Steward will do the donut change and give his insights into the procedure. AEC, the manufacturer of the PMA donuts, may also participate in this venture. I?m also planning to do an article for the BAC Talk on the donut change. I?ll need help photographing (video and digital camera) the process. May also need help with audio and lighting. The video will be made available to BAC members.

    If you have interest in participating in either or both of these projects e-mail me at cloydvanhook@yahoo.com and let me know what you can contribute.



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  3. #3
    I second Richard's input. I can contribute some funds but I don't have the expertise you are seeking. I do think it is a fantastic initive! Great thinking!!!

    Chris L.
    Sierra N5106M
    KSLC

  4. #4

    Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)

    Hello,

    While all the items that have been discussed would be desirable features for
    our planes, I suggest that our first priority for an STC product should be a
    set of shoulder harnesses for both the front and back seats of our planes.
    My plane does not have any shoulder harnesses, just seat belts. I would
    love to be able to install a set of shoulder harnesses in my plane so that
    in the terrible event I need them, my family and children would have that
    extra measure of protection they provide.

    Further, I would be happy to assist in the effort.

    Scott W. Flood
    A24 Super Mouse
    N6146N


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  5. #5

    Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)

    In a message dated 01/12/2005 7:26:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bigbajon
    writes:

    Suggest that if bird not equipped with shoulder belts from the factory..not
    going to happen in our lifetime.

    jon

    In a message dated 01/12/2005 7:17:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    sflood@iballot.com writes:

    Hello,

    While all the items that have been discussed would be desirable features for
    our planes, I suggest that our first priority for an STC product should be a
    set of shoulder harnesses for both the front and back seats of our planes.
    My plane does not have any shoulder harnesses, just seat belts. I would
    love to be able to install a set of shoulder harnesses in my plane so that
    in the terrible event I need them, my family and children would have that
    extra measure of protection they provide.

    Further, I would be happy to assist in the effort.

    Scott W. Flood
    A24 Super Mouse





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  6. #6

    Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)

    Some post-factory STCs for shoulder and/or 5-point harnesses for front
    seats have been approved using the rear seatbelt hardpoints. The
    problem is providing new hard points to anchor them more than the belts
    themselves. As paramedic some of the times when I'm not flying I can
    testify that the amount of force exterted on belt hard points during a
    crash is non-trivial and requires structural level design to
    accommodate.
    --
    Mark


    -----Original Message-----
    From: bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org
    [mailto:bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org] On Behalf Of
    Bigbajon@aol.com
    Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:33 PM
    To: bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    Subject: Re: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and
    Women)


    In a message dated 01/12/2005 7:26:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bigbajon
    writes:

    Suggest that if bird not equipped with shoulder belts from the
    factory..not going to happen in our lifetime.

    jon

    In a message dated 01/12/2005 7:17:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    sflood@iballot.com writes:

    Hello,

    While all the items that have been discussed would be desirable
    features for our planes, I suggest that our first priority for an STC
    product should be a set of shoulder harnesses for both the front and
    back seats of our planes.
    My plane does not have any shoulder harnesses, just seat belts. I
    would love to be able to install a set of shoulder harnesses in my
    plane so that in the terrible event I need them, my family and children
    would have that extra measure of protection they provide.

    Further, I would be happy to assist in the effort.

    Scott W. Flood
    A24 Super Mouse





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  7. #7

    Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)

    Hi there,

    The obvious problem with using a rear seatbelt as a shoulder harness
    "hardpoint" is that you can't have anyone in the rear seats when you are
    using them.

    While I am sure I am naive at this, I would have to hope that the FAA would
    help us add more safety features to our planes rather than hinder us.

    Scott

    -----Original Message-----
    From: bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org
    [mailto:bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org]On Behalf Of Mark Gooderum
    Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:43 PM
    To: Bigbajon@aol.com; bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    Subject: RE: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and
    Women)


    Some post-factory STCs for shoulder and/or 5-point harnesses for front
    seats have been approved using the rear seatbelt hardpoints. The
    problem is providing new hard points to anchor them more than the belts
    themselves. As paramedic some of the times when I'm not flying I can
    testify that the amount of force exterted on belt hard points during a
    crash is non-trivial and requires structural level design to
    accommodate.
    --
    Mark


    -----Original Message-----
    From: bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org
    [mailto:bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org] On Behalf Of
    Bigbajon@aol.com
    Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:33 PM
    To: bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    Subject: Re: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and
    Women)


    In a message dated 01/12/2005 7:26:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bigbajon
    writes:

    Suggest that if bird not equipped with shoulder belts from the
    factory..not going to happen in our lifetime.

    jon

    In a message dated 01/12/2005 7:17:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    sflood@iballot.com writes:

    Hello,

    While all the items that have been discussed would be desirable
    features for our planes, I suggest that our first priority for an STC
    product should be a set of shoulder harnesses for both the front and
    back seats of our planes.
    My plane does not have any shoulder harnesses, just seat belts. I
    would love to be able to install a set of shoulder harnesses in my
    plane so that in the terrible event I need them, my family and children
    would have that extra measure of protection they provide.

    Further, I would be happy to assist in the effort.

    Scott W. Flood
    A24 Super Mouse





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    http://www.beechaeroclub.org/mailman/listinfo/bac-mail



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  8. #8
    mark at jumpweb.com
    Guest

    Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)

    RE: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)It's not a question of not helping us add safety features, it's a point of having a firm view that it has to be proven that modifcations either don't hinder or improve safety. I wasn't necessarily even advocating the rear seat solution. My point was that if you look at the existing seatbelt STCs most of them have avoided having to add new hardpoints - even established companies have avoided chewing off the work of making and proving that level of structural alteration.

    As an example - look at the SuperMice (A23-24) with the drop in 3rd seat option - those aircraft were _built_ to have that option - it's pretty much impossible to retrofit the option (to my knowledge nobody has even tried) given the structural differences required - and that is for a seat that had a weight limit restriction to small children (50 pounds each was it???).

    If there isn't enough strength at the hardpoint the seatbelt anchor rips out at the time of the crash and the anchor and seatbelt end become a missle - very dangerous in their own right, quite possibly more risk to injury than not having the shoulder belt at all. One point to consider is that when a shoulder belt anchor rips out the most likely anatomical target is the back of somebody's head - at even 50 mph an object of only a few ounces has enough energy to impart a devestating injury to the skull (for the rest of our normal lives one big thing we can do for safety is make sure we don't have any loose objects up on the dash or the rear window deck - if you have a crash the pound puppy won't hurt you much but something like a kids toy or a flashlight sure can...).

    Safety standards are realisitic - a 100mph impact isn't regarded as survivable so no safety standards try to address those forces - but even a full stop impact in the survivable range (50-60mph or or less, give or take, so think about that when planning your emergency landings) will exert several thousand pounds of force on the seatbelt anchors...each and every one at the same time.

    People saying they can't be added - they're pointing that providing a hardpoint where there wasn't one previously - especially in a sheet _aluminum_ structure like an airplane - will require structural alterations - how much depends on how much "structure" is available. The comment that getting photo documentation of the structure is important - but remember an STC for adding new hardpoints will be expected to provide "proof" of meeting the certification standards, this might well require real load testing, or worse. Realize that the current Part 23 standards for occupuent seat and restraint systems require at least two "dynamic" (ie: crash) tests (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...4?OpenDocument). In general part 23 views the seats and the restraint system and the overall aircraft structure as a single system. For instance there are standards on deformation of the structure on impact. I don't know what part 23 looked like around 1970 but it probably still had similar requirements.

    The point being that there is a reason people have commented before that this sort of STC is very difficult. It's a lot more than just adding a doubler plate with an attach bolt - that's all. Also seat belts were not an original item and only showed up in later aircraft so the FAA reviewer could make the argument that the modification has to meet more recent and stricter certification standards. In practice unlikely, but these are the sort of bumps in the road that can come up in the STC process.

    Also remember that for the STC process the FAA will review and provide comment on engineering analysis but the process prohibits them from providing any actual design assistance.

    I'm not trying to be negative - but provide a little more background for _why_ several qualified people have previously said it would be very difficult at best.
    --
    Mark

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Scott Flood
    To: bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 7:43 AM
    Subject: RE: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)


    Hi there,

    The obvious problem with using a rear seatbelt as a shoulder harness
    "hardpoint" is that you can't have anyone in the rear seats when you are
    using them.

    While I am sure I am naive at this, I would have to hope that the FAA would
    help us add more safety features to our planes rather than hinder us.

    Scott

    -----Original Message-----
    From: bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org
    [mailto:bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org]On Behalf Of Mark Gooderum
    Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:43 PM
    To: Bigbajon@aol.com; bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    Subject: RE: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and
    Women)


    Some post-factory STCs for shoulder and/or 5-point harnesses for front
    seats have been approved using the rear seatbelt hardpoints. The
    problem is providing new hard points to anchor them more than the belts
    themselves. As paramedic some of the times when I'm not flying I can
    testify that the amount of force exterted on belt hard points during a
    crash is non-trivial and requires structural level design to
    accommodate.
    --
    Mark


    -----Original Message-----
    From: bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org
    [mailto:bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org] On Behalf Of
    Bigbajon@aol.com
    Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:33 PM
    To: bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    Subject: Re: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and
    Women)


    In a message dated 01/12/2005 7:26:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bigbajon
    writes:

    Suggest that if bird not equipped with shoulder belts from the
    factory..not going to happen in our lifetime.

    jon

    In a message dated 01/12/2005 7:17:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    sflood@iballot.com writes:

    Hello,

    While all the items that have been discussed would be desirable
    features for our planes, I suggest that our first priority for an STC
    product should be a set of shoulder harnesses for both the front and
    back seats of our planes.
    My plane does not have any shoulder harnesses, just seat belts. I
    would love to be able to install a set of shoulder harnesses in my
    plane so that in the terrible event I need them, my family and children
    would have that extra measure of protection they provide.

    Further, I would be happy to assist in the effort.

    Scott W. Flood
    A24 Super Mouse





    _______________________________________________
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    BAC-Mail@beechaeroclub.org
    http://www.beechaeroclub.org/mailman/listinfo/bac-mail
    _______________________________________________
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    BAC-Mail@beechaeroclub.org
    http://www.beechaeroclub.org/mailman/listinfo/bac-mail



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  9. #9

    Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good Men (and Women)

    Mark, good point about structural testing. There are
    plenty of old fuselages in the salvage yard. BAC
    should consider acquiring a couple of these also (to
    go along with the photos)...

    Jay

    --- Mark Gooderum <mark@jumpweb.com> wrote:

    > RE: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a Few Good
    > Men (and Women)It's not a question of not helping us
    > add safety features, it's a point of having a firm
    > view that it has to be proven that modifcations
    > either don't hinder or improve safety. I wasn't
    > necessarily even advocating the rear seat solution.
    > My point was that if you look at the existing
    > seatbelt STCs most of them have avoided having to
    > add new hardpoints - even established companies have
    > avoided chewing off the work of making and proving
    > that level of structural alteration.
    >
    > As an example - look at the SuperMice (A23-24) with
    > the drop in 3rd seat option - those aircraft were
    > _built_ to have that option - it's pretty much
    > impossible to retrofit the option (to my knowledge
    > nobody has even tried) given the structural
    > differences required - and that is for a seat that
    > had a weight limit restriction to small children (50
    > pounds each was it???).
    >
    > If there isn't enough strength at the hardpoint the
    > seatbelt anchor rips out at the time of the crash
    > and the anchor and seatbelt end become a missle -
    > very dangerous in their own right, quite possibly
    > more risk to injury than not having the shoulder
    > belt at all. One point to consider is that when a
    > shoulder belt anchor rips out the most likely
    > anatomical target is the back of somebody's head -
    > at even 50 mph an object of only a few ounces has
    > enough energy to impart a devestating injury to the
    > skull (for the rest of our normal lives one big
    > thing we can do for safety is make sure we don't
    > have any loose objects up on the dash or the rear
    > window deck - if you have a crash the pound puppy
    > won't hurt you much but something like a kids toy or
    > a flashlight sure can...).
    >
    > Safety standards are realisitic - a 100mph impact
    > isn't regarded as survivable so no safety standards
    > try to address those forces - but even a full stop
    > impact in the survivable range (50-60mph or or less,
    > give or take, so think about that when planning your
    > emergency landings) will exert several thousand
    > pounds of force on the seatbelt anchors...each and
    > every one at the same time.
    >
    > People saying they can't be added - they're pointing
    > that providing a hardpoint where there wasn't one
    > previously - especially in a sheet _aluminum_
    > structure like an airplane - will require structural
    > alterations - how much depends on how much
    > "structure" is available. The comment that getting
    > photo documentation of the structure is important -
    > but remember an STC for adding new hardpoints will
    > be expected to provide "proof" of meeting the
    > certification standards, this might well require
    > real load testing, or worse. Realize that the
    > current Part 23 standards for occupuent seat and
    > restraint systems require at least two "dynamic"
    > (ie: crash) tests
    >
    (http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...4?OpenDocument).
    > In general part 23 views the seats and the restraint
    > system and the overall aircraft structure as a
    > single system. For instance there are standards on
    > deformation of the structure on impact. I don't
    > know what part 23 looked like around 1970 but it
    > probably still had similar requirements.
    >
    > The point being that there is a reason people have
    > commented before that this sort of STC is very
    > difficult. It's a lot more than just adding a
    > doubler plate with an attach bolt - that's all.
    > Also seat belts were not an original item and only
    > showed up in later aircraft so the FAA reviewer
    > could make the argument that the modification has to
    > meet more recent and stricter certification
    > standards. In practice unlikely, but these are the
    > sort of bumps in the road that can come up in the
    > STC process.
    >
    > Also remember that for the STC process the FAA will
    > review and provide comment on engineering analysis
    > but the process prohibits them from providing any
    > actual design assistance.
    >
    > I'm not trying to be negative - but provide a little
    > more background for _why_ several qualified people
    > have previously said it would be very difficult at
    > best.
    > --
    > Mark
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: Scott Flood
    > To: bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 7:43 AM
    > Subject: RE: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a
    > Few Good Men (and Women)
    >
    >
    > Hi there,
    >
    > The obvious problem with using a rear seatbelt as
    > a shoulder harness
    > "hardpoint" is that you can't have anyone in the
    > rear seats when you are
    > using them.
    >
    > While I am sure I am naive at this, I would have
    > to hope that the FAA would
    > help us add more safety features to our planes
    > rather than hinder us.
    >
    > Scott
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org
    > [mailto:bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org]On
    > Behalf Of Mark Gooderum
    > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 8:43 PM
    > To: Bigbajon@aol.com; bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    > Subject: RE: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a
    > Few Good Men (and
    > Women)
    >
    >
    > Some post-factory STCs for shoulder and/or 5-point
    > harnesses for front
    > seats have been approved using the rear seatbelt
    > hardpoints. The
    > problem is providing new hard points to anchor
    > them more than the belts
    > themselves. As paramedic some of the times when
    > I'm not flying I can
    > testify that the amount of force exterted on belt
    > hard points during a
    > crash is non-trivial and requires structural level
    > design to
    > accommodate.
    > --
    > Mark
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org
    > [mailto:bac-mail-bounces@beechaeroclub.org] On
    > Behalf Of
    > Bigbajon@aol.com
    > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:33 PM
    > To: bac-mail@beechaeroclub.org
    > Subject: Re: [BAC-Mail] Uncle BAC is Looking for a
    > Few Good Men (and
    > Women)
    >
    >
    > In a message dated 01/12/2005 7:26:47 PM Eastern
    > Standard Time, Bigbajon
    > writes:
    >
    > Suggest that if bird not equipped with shoulder
    > belts from the
    > factory..not going to happen in our lifetime.
    >
    > jon
    >
    > In a message dated 01/12/2005 7:17:01 PM Eastern
    > Standard Time,
    > sflood@iballot.com writes:
    >
    > Hello,
    >
    > While all the items that have been discussed would
    > be desirable
    > features for our planes, I suggest that our first
    > priority for an STC
    > product should be a set of shoulder harnesses for
    > both the front and
    > back seats of our planes.
    > My plane does not have any shoulder harnesses,
    > just seat belts. I
    > would love to be able to install a set of
    > shoulder harnesses in my
    > plane so that in the terrible event I need them,
    > my family and children
    > would have that extra measure of protection they
    > provide.
    >
    > Further, I would be happy to assist in the
    > effort.
    >
    > Scott W. Flood
    > A24 Super Mouse
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > BAC-Mail mailing list
    > BAC-Mail@beechaeroclub.org
    >
    === message truncated ===




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