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Thread: [musketeermail] Shoulder Harness

  1. #1

    [musketeermail] Shoulder Harness

    Dern, Shelby. Did you not see Cloyd's proposal for just such a group in
    BAC, along with the stellar participants who have already signed on? At
    least one aerospace engineer (who is already applying for her Designated
    Engineering Representative certificate from the FAA, to be followed by her
    Designated Airworthiness Representative certificate); at least one person
    basically inside the FAA who is on the verge of receiving his FAA 337
    approval to convert the aft cabin of his Sport to the Sundowner
    configuration; some very experienced maintenance folks; some people with
    broad knowledge of the paperwork issues to be dealt with; and more. We have
    some people knowledgeable about industrial engineering, some good
    machinists, etc. We have at least a few bucks in the BAC kitty now, to
    pursue some of these things, as was planned during the formation of BAC.
    Hopefully we will keep drawing new members, to help keep the boat moving
    forward.



    The one thing we want and need to do is to focus on the items of interest
    that we cannot get other, more experienced organizations to pursue for us.
    We certainly aren't going to be able to do things for less money than it
    costs a company that already has the materials, tooling, skilled workers,
    etc. If they are willing to make and sell wheel pants, BAC needs to work on
    something where the needs aren't being met.



    And having said that, I still have some lingering doubts about the
    financials on some of these things. We pestered AEC mercilessly to get the
    new PMA'd donuts on the market. I had literally dozens of people telling me
    they were ready and willing to buy, as soon as they became available. Well,
    despite the fact that they were introduced at about one-half of the price
    from Beech, AEC hasn't even sold a dozen sets yet. They won't even break
    even on the R&D investment until they pass the sale of 100 sets. There are
    undoubtedly well over 1,000 planes out there that need new donuts. Would
    you pour personal investments into wheel pants? Something that isn't even
    needed, the way most of the airframes are overdue for donuts? And which
    will probably cost significantly more than a set of donuts? The situation
    isn't unique to BAC members, either. I had these donuts listed on eBay as
    an (uncompensated) favor to AEC (due to the low donut purchase rate from BAC
    and MML). Had lots of watchers, but not a single bid, during a ten-day
    auction. I'm afraid that too many owners have these planes not because they
    actually found the best choice (though they did, often by accident and good
    luck), but simply because the price of entry was lower. Then they continue
    that philosophy when it comes to maintenance and upgrades. Not true of
    everyone, of course, but it sure seems to be the trend. Anyway, that's part
    of the reason why I think that the BAC group should start out with the
    easier things requiring a smaller investment (like already-certified
    stick-on aileron gap seals, adaptable to most or all of our airframes).
    Once we gauge the response to something like that, we can find out whether
    anyone is really going to spend twenty or fifty times that much for proper
    shoulder harness mounts. There are many good reasons why modifiers develop
    products for Bonanzas, but not Sundowners and Sierras. People spend money
    on their Bonanzas, as well as there being more of them..



    By the way, I think (but am not certain) that most of the shoulder belt
    mounts used a bracket built into the junction of the top aft corner of each
    front cabin door jamb, where it joins the upper fuselage (for the front
    seats). In early planes, the inertial reel was actually mounted on the
    floor between the front seats, with the belt crossing the chest and clipping
    on the upper stud, unrelated to the lap belt. It may have actually shared
    the same inboard belt hard-point used by the lap belt. Or at least, I have
    seen 19/23/24 planes with that configuration. On later planes, the inertia
    reels are mounted in new "hard points" in the cabin sidewalls. There are
    D-rings in the top jamb corners (and similarly located points for the rear
    seats). On this later style, the belt runs from the reel, up through the
    D-ring, then down across the chest to where it clips on the lug on the seat
    belt buckle. If the existing seat belts don't have that lug, the belts
    would have to be changed, to convert to the later style shoulder harness.
    There is also an AD on those lugs. If the plastic ring in the lug is
    cracked or missing, the belt must be repaired or replaced. Without the
    plastic ring, the shoulder belt won't remain clipped in place. With only
    superficial thought, it seems that it would be easier to create a more
    "universal package" if the retrofit design could stick with reels that
    shared existing seat belt hard points, and only a new hard point for a post,
    to which a clip-on buckle could attach, had to be engineered in. That would
    be much less disruptive to upholster, sidewall plastic, etc., though it
    would still require the same strength as a reel mount. Since the net load
    for a single occupant remains the same, just distributed over two belt
    areas, I would not think that having the reel share a lap belt hard point
    would be an issue. A less expensive option would be just using longer
    manually-adjustable belts rather than inertia reels, for the shoulder
    harness. Anyway, just rambling; guess it's getting late.



    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Shelby Smith
    Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 8:56 PM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] Shoulder Harness



    I agree, there has to be someone at the FAA that believes shoulder
    restraints of any type are better than none - but I think we can do
    better than that. There has to be some structural members extending
    into the back of the plane that would reasonably transfer or distribute
    those forces over an acceptable range or area.

    The drawings of what Beech did would be great or what other companies
    have done could be helpful as well.

    What I would like to see, is a group or committee organized to look at
    a lot of the technical mods we are dreaming about.

    On my list -

    Shoulder Harnesses
    Wheel Pants
    Cowling/Cooling upgrade
    Diesel Conversion - Theilert(sp) for the 165 HP planes.

    Shelby Smith
    N4004T
    B23 - 180HP


    On Saturday, December 3, 2005, at 09:17 AM,
    musketeermail@yahoogroups.com wrote:

    > Hello,
    >
    > While all the items that have been discussed would be desirable
    > features for
    > our planes, I suggest that our first priority for an STC product
    > should be a
    > set of shoulder harnesses for both the front and back seats of our
    > planes.
    > My plane does not have any shoulder harnesses, just seat belts. I
    > would
    > love to be able to install a set of shoulder harnesses in my plane so
    > that
    > in the terrible event I need them, my family and children would have
    > that
    > extra measure of protection they provide.
    >
    > Further, I would be happy to assist in the effort.
    >
    > Scott W. Flood
    > A24 Super Mouse
    > N6146N



    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

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  2. #2

    [musketeermail] Shoulder Harness

    I have had contact with Beams Industries of Oklahoma City recently. They make some mighty fine automotive seatbelts and inertia reels in my opinion. They know very little about airplanes but adapting their product would be pretty easy. Getting a TSO for it might be a different story. My application has been automotive but torso restraints in Musketeers is very much of interest to me.

    Willis Cooke


    Mike Rellihan <rellihan@rellihan.com> wrote:
    Dern, Shelby. Did you not see Cloyd's proposal for just such a group in
    BAC, along with the stellar participants who have already signed on? At
    least one aerospace engineer (who is already applying for her Designated
    Engineering Representative certificate from the FAA, to be followed by her
    Designated Airworthiness Representative certificate); at least one person
    basically inside the FAA who is on the verge of receiving his FAA 337
    approval to convert the aft cabin of his Sport to the Sundowner
    configuration; some very experienced maintenance folks; some people with
    broad knowledge of the paperwork issues to be dealt with; and more. We have
    some people knowledgeable about industrial engineering, some good
    machinists, etc. We have at least a few bucks in the BAC kitty now, to
    pursue some of these things, as was planned during the formation of BAC.
    Hopefully we will keep drawing new members, to help keep the boat moving
    forward.



    The one thing we want and need to do is to focus on the items of interest
    that we cannot get other, more experienced organizations to pursue for us.
    We certainly aren't going to be able to do things for less money than it
    costs a company that already has the materials, tooling, skilled workers,
    etc. If they are willing to make and sell wheel pants, BAC needs to work on
    something where the needs aren't being met.



    And having said that, I still have some lingering doubts about the
    financials on some of these things. We pestered AEC mercilessly to get the
    new PMA'd donuts on the market. I had literally dozens of people telling me
    they were ready and willing to buy, as soon as they became available. Well,
    despite the fact that they were introduced at about one-half of the price
    from Beech, AEC hasn't even sold a dozen sets yet. They won't even break
    even on the R&D investment until they pass the sale of 100 sets. There are
    undoubtedly well over 1,000 planes out there that need new donuts. Would
    you pour personal investments into wheel pants? Something that isn't even
    needed, the way most of the airframes are overdue for donuts? And which
    will probably cost significantly more than a set of donuts? The situation
    isn't unique to BAC members, either. I had these donuts listed on eBay as
    an (uncompensated) favor to AEC (due to the low donut purchase rate from BAC
    and MML). Had lots of watchers, but not a single bid, during a ten-day
    auction. I'm afraid that too many owners have these planes not because they
    actually found the best choice (though they did, often by accident and good
    luck), but simply because the price of entry was lower. Then they continue
    that philosophy when it comes to maintenance and upgrades. Not true of
    everyone, of course, but it sure seems to be the trend. Anyway, that's part
    of the reason why I think that the BAC group should start out with the
    easier things requiring a smaller investment (like already-certified
    stick-on aileron gap seals, adaptable to most or all of our airframes).
    Once we gauge the response to something like that, we can find out whether
    anyone is really going to spend twenty or fifty times that much for proper
    shoulder harness mounts. There are many good reasons why modifiers develop
    products for Bonanzas, but not Sundowners and Sierras. People spend money
    on their Bonanzas, as well as there being more of them..



    By the way, I think (but am not certain) that most of the shoulder belt
    mounts used a bracket built into the junction of the top aft corner of each
    front cabin door jamb, where it joins the upper fuselage (for the front
    seats). In early planes, the inertial reel was actually mounted on the
    floor between the front seats, with the belt crossing the chest and clipping
    on the upper stud, unrelated to the lap belt. It may have actually shared
    the same inboard belt hard-point used by the lap belt. Or at least, I have
    seen 19/23/24 planes with that configuration. On later planes, the inertia
    reels are mounted in new "hard points" in the cabin sidewalls. There are
    D-rings in the top jamb corners (and similarly located points for the rear
    seats). On this later style, the belt runs from the reel, up through the
    D-ring, then down across the chest to where it clips on the lug on the seat
    belt buckle. If the existing seat belts don't have that lug, the belts
    would have to be changed, to convert to the later style shoulder harness.
    There is also an AD on those lugs. If the plastic ring in the lug is
    cracked or missing, the belt must be repaired or replaced. Without the
    plastic ring, the shoulder belt won't remain clipped in place. With only
    superficial thought, it seems that it would be easier to create a more
    "universal package" if the retrofit design could stick with reels that
    shared existing seat belt hard points, and only a new hard point for a post,
    to which a clip-on buckle could attach, had to be engineered in. That would
    be much less disruptive to upholster, sidewall plastic, etc., though it
    would still require the same strength as a reel mount. Since the net load
    for a single occupant remains the same, just distributed over two belt
    areas, I would not think that having the reel share a lap belt hard point
    would be an issue. A less expensive option would be just using longer
    manually-adjustable belts rather than inertia reels, for the shoulder
    harness. Anyway, just rambling; guess it's getting late.



    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Shelby Smith
    Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 8:56 PM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] Shoulder Harness



    I agree, there has to be someone at the FAA that believes shoulder
    restraints of any type are better than none - but I think we can do
    better than that. There has to be some structural members extending
    into the back of the plane that would reasonably transfer or distribute
    those forces over an acceptable range or area.

    The drawings of what Beech did would be great or what other companies
    have done could be helpful as well.

    What I would like to see, is a group or committee organized to look at
    a lot of the technical mods we are dreaming about.

    On my list -

    Shoulder Harnesses
    Wheel Pants
    Cowling/Cooling upgrade
    Diesel Conversion - Theilert(sp) for the 165 HP planes.

    Shelby Smith
    N4004T
    B23 - 180HP


    On Saturday, December 3, 2005, at 09:17 AM,
    musketeermail@yahoogroups.com wrote:

    > Hello,
    >
    > While all the items that have been discussed would be desirable
    > features for
    > our planes, I suggest that our first priority for an STC product
    > should be a
    > set of shoulder harnesses for both the front and back seats of our
    > planes.
    > My plane does not have any shoulder harnesses, just seat belts. I
    > would
    > love to be able to install a set of shoulder harnesses in my plane so
    > that
    > in the terrible event I need them, my family and children would have
    > that
    > extra measure of protection they provide.
    >
    > Further, I would be happy to assist in the effort.
    >
    > Scott W. Flood
    > A24 Super Mouse
    > N6146N



    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org






    SPONSORED LINKS


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    viation+training&w3=Aviation+training+school&a mp;w4=Aviation+training+schools&w5
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    training academy





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  3. #3

    [musketeermail] Shoulder Harness

    I have the same setup in my plane 75 Sundowner, they do work. When I went of
    the end of the runway a year ago, the next day I was dam my shoulder hurts
    and my wife said the same, but the opposite shoulder, that when I realized,
    Shoulder belt. So they do work and once you get used to the hook up they're
    a piece of cake.
    Brian Foote
    BAC NE Regional Director



    > Hi All -
    >
    > When I got my '73 Sport, it had these strange reels on the floor between
    > the
    > seats, connected at the same point as the lap belts.
    >
    > The shoulder belts pulled up from the floor and hooked on a screw up on
    > the door
    > post. Strange looking, like nothing I had ever seen before, and actually
    > strange
    > looking.
    >
    > All the straps were dirty and the lapbelts were actually too short. OK,
    > my
    > fault, but there you are.
    >
    > I asked my mechanic what we could do. Turns out, he had a brand new pair
    > of Beech
    > seatbelts from a Bonanza in a box. The shoulder straps were designed to
    > hook to
    > a screw on the post and have a flat tab that the lap belt threads through
    > before
    > the tab snaps into the buckle.
    >
    > A little adjustment and ten minutes - ALL DONE! And, it doesn't look
    > upside down,
    > either.
    >
    > I don't know just what the door post is made of that it can support the
    > shoulder
    > harness, but the screw was already there. Maybe other planes have one of
    > those
    > screws on the door post?
    >
    > So, only a 3-point harness, not attached to the overhead, like the parts
    > manual
    > shows for the 4-point setup, but maybe I wouldn't eat the Kollsman knob if
    > we hit
    > something harder than the hanger door? Now, if that tab didn't dig into
    > my leg...
    >
    >
    > Bill Howard
    > BeechSportBill
    > N1927W 1973 Sport 150
    > Beech Aero Club NorthWest Region Director
    > ---- Msg sent via @bmi.net Mail v4 - http://www.bmi.net
    >
    >
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