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Thread: Brake Problem

  1. #1

    Brake Problem

    Hey All,

    Finally got my '65 mouse flying agian, but my left brake peddle seem
    to go all the way to the floor when applied---right side normal. In
    the AM I will inspect, probably bleed them, then hopefully all will be
    well. Any other suggestions on what I should check out?

    Thanks,

    Greg
    N3590R





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  2. #2

    Brake Problem

    This is the second posting like this in a week and while not trying to
    start a flame war...
    My response to both has to be that FOR THE QUESTIONS BEING ASKED, you
    need to talk to a mechanic. You might be the world's greatest mechanic
    on cars, a neuro-surgeon, or whatever. But if you need to ask what
    can cause a soft brake, what kind of fluid to use, etc, you know
    enough to hurt yourself & your passengers when you go off the end of a
    runway, or whoever is standing in front of you. When I was young &
    dumber, I watched a Mooney with bad brakes unable to stop from a very
    slow taxi; it stopped after chewing into a hangar door. I've seen
    transports do similar since then, because even at idle, airplane
    engines are making thrust.

    I got to be an Aero Engineer by working as an A&P and STILL ask for
    help where I feel rusty, let alone come across something that I've not
    done before!!! My guess is that you'll press on regardless, but this
    is WAY past what's legal (43.13, Appendix A) or common sense.

    Thanks for having enough patience to put up with my little rant, I'll
    get off my soap box now.

    Bob
    A&P, Aero Eng
    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "emilee013192"
    <emilee013192@y...> wrote:
    >
    > Hey All,
    >
    > Finally got my '65 mouse flying agian, but my left brake peddle seem
    > to go all the way to the floor when applied---right side normal. In
    > the AM I will inspect, probably bleed them, then hopefully all will
    be
    > well. Any other suggestions on what I should check out?
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Greg
    > N3590R
    >






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  3. #3

    Brake Problem

    Gee whiz Bob. So if a person doesn't already know how to fix
    something, then the only alternative is to have an A&P (or an Aero
    Engineer) do it? How the heck do you expect anybody to learn anything
    if they aren't allowed to ask questions? You said that you still ask
    questions, so why can't anybody else?

    Replacing brake pads and servicing the fluid are items allowed to be
    done by the owner. So let's help educate this owner. You and I both
    know that the most likely problems with Greg's brakes are 1) low on
    fluid, 2) need to bleed air from system, 3) leak. So why not give him
    advice on how to properly bleed the system and how to find the leaks?

    For heaven sake, the Mooney you saw didn't have brakes on EITHER side
    working. Greg has one side still working. Once Greg gets the "bad"
    side fixed, he can be pretty safe testing the brakes at idle. Or even
    have an assistant try to tow the plane (engine off) while he works
    the pedals.

    The more I think about your rude response to Greg, the madder I'm
    getting. I've run into this "I'm smart, but you're too stupid"
    attitude before in aviation and many other fields. So consider this
    the opening volly in the flame war you expected.

    Steve Robertson
    N4732J 1967 Super III

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Swaim" <dswaim1119@c...>
    wrote:
    >
    > This is the second posting like this in a week and while not trying
    to
    > start a flame war...
    > My response to both has to be that FOR THE QUESTIONS BEING ASKED,
    you
    > need to talk to a mechanic. You might be the world's greatest
    mechanic
    > on cars, a neuro-surgeon, or whatever. But if you need to ask what
    > can cause a soft brake, what kind of fluid to use, etc, you know
    > enough to hurt yourself & your passengers when you go off the end
    of a
    > runway, or whoever is standing in front of you. When I was young &
    > dumber, I watched a Mooney with bad brakes unable to stop from a
    very
    > slow taxi; it stopped after chewing into a hangar door. I've seen
    > transports do similar since then, because even at idle, airplane
    > engines are making thrust.
    >
    > I got to be an Aero Engineer by working as an A&P and STILL ask for
    > help where I feel rusty, let alone come across something that I've
    not
    > done before!!! My guess is that you'll press on regardless, but
    this
    > is WAY past what's legal (43.13, Appendix A) or common sense.
    >
    > Thanks for having enough patience to put up with my little rant,
    I'll
    > get off my soap box now.
    >
    > Bob
    > A&P, Aero Eng
    > --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "emilee013192"
    > <emilee013192@y...> wrote:
    > >
    > > Hey All,
    > >
    > > Finally got my '65 mouse flying agian, but my left brake peddle
    seem
    > > to go all the way to the floor when applied---right side normal.
    In
    > > the AM I will inspect, probably bleed them, then hopefully all
    will
    > be
    > > well. Any other suggestions on what I should check out?
    > >
    > > Thanks,
    > >
    > > Greg
    > > N3590R
    > >
    >







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  4. #4

    Brake Problem

    Greg:

    Sounds like you have a leak in your left system. If it was entrapped air needing bleeding, the pedal would be soft & spongy but not likely go all the way to the floor. Check your fluid level & that will indicate whether or not you have a leak. If you don't find any leaks, another possibility is a defective master cylinder.

    When you go to bleed you should pressure bleed from the bottom. A pistol grip oil can works well for me. Be sure you use aviation hydraulic brake fluid MIL- H-5606.

    Good luck,

    Don
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: emilee013192
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 1:00 AM
    Subject: [musketeermail] Brake Problem


    Hey All,

    Finally got my '65 mouse flying agian, but my left brake peddle seem
    to go all the way to the floor when applied---right side normal. In
    the AM I will inspect, probably bleed them, then hopefully all will be
    well. Any other suggestions on what I should check out?

    Thanks,

    Greg
    N3590R





    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

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  5. #5

    Brake Problem

    All -
    I've re-read my post and Steve's right in that I came across too
    harsh, so for that I apologize to the poster and the group.
    Further, I really responded this strongly to the wrong post, the
    frustration was more from the previous person telling about how he
    didn't like his A&P, so he wanted to know how to replace his master
    cylinder seals, and what type of fluid to use (Class 3 or 4!). So
    I'll also apologize for addressing the wrong person.

    I also was not saying that these guys couldn't/shouldn't ask
    questions. I spent last Saturday showing a guy how to do his own
    maintenance and have answered numerous posts here. If a person is
    asking so that he can work with his A&P or know what's going on,
    fantastic. If things aren't in the list of what's allowed, but can
    be done safey, that's up to the owner and I've answered some of
    those too.

    The difference was that these posts clearly went past that,
    especially in up-front saying they wanted to do something illegal
    and which can create a problem. How to intentionally avoid any A&P,
    not utilize the maintenance manual, or even the owner's manual.

    There are a lot of things that are NOT approved for owner mx and
    which can create problems unintentionally. Bleeding the brakes and
    rebuilding the master cylinders are there. I should've probably
    answered more like Don did and nicely added that bleeding brakes
    needs to be done with the mechanic. However, bleed your plane's
    brakes like you would a car and you'll create not just soft brakes,
    but diminish their effectiveness if you think you can try to fly
    anyway. (Seen it done) Add Class III or IV car fluid and 5606 will
    turn to mud after a little time, locking up a brake. In a similar
    vein, I've just spent many hours replacing automotive wiring in the
    Sport that I currently am cleaning up, some of which was FAR too
    small a gauge for the installation. Ever seen a small electric
    bundle short creat so much black soot that it obscured the cockpit
    windows?

    So again, sorry for being harsh and I hope people keep asking
    questions. It's a great group.
    Bob
    ps - I'll be on the road for the next week or so. I'll try to catch
    up then.

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "ke4oh" <ke4oh@y...> wrote:
    >
    > Gee whiz Bob. So if a person doesn't already know how to fix
    > something, then the only alternative is to have an A&P (or an Aero
    > Engineer) do it? How the heck do you expect anybody to learn
    anything
    > if they aren't allowed to ask questions? You said that you still
    ask
    > questions, so why can't anybody else?
    >
    > Replacing brake pads and servicing the fluid are items allowed to
    be
    > done by the owner. So let's help educate this owner. You and I
    both
    > know that the most likely problems with Greg's brakes are 1) low
    on
    > fluid, 2) need to bleed air from system, 3) leak. So why not give
    him
    > advice on how to properly bleed the system and how to find the
    leaks?
    >
    > For heaven sake, the Mooney you saw didn't have brakes on EITHER
    side
    > working. Greg has one side still working. Once Greg gets the "bad"
    > side fixed, he can be pretty safe testing the brakes at idle. Or
    even
    > have an assistant try to tow the plane (engine off) while he works
    > the pedals.
    >
    > The more I think about your rude response to Greg, the madder I'm
    > getting. I've run into this "I'm smart, but you're too stupid"
    > attitude before in aviation and many other fields. So consider
    this
    > the opening volly in the flame war you expected.
    >
    > Steve Robertson
    > N4732J 1967 Super III
    >
    > --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Swaim"
    <dswaim1119@c...>
    > wrote:
    > >
    > > This is the second posting like this in a week and while not
    trying
    > to
    > > start a flame war...
    > > My response to both has to be that FOR THE QUESTIONS BEING
    ASKED,
    > you
    > > need to talk to a mechanic. You might be the world's greatest
    > mechanic
    > > on cars, a neuro-surgeon, or whatever. But if you need to ask
    what
    > > can cause a soft brake, what kind of fluid to use, etc, you know
    > > enough to hurt yourself & your passengers when you go off the
    end
    > of a
    > > runway, or whoever is standing in front of you. When I was
    young &
    > > dumber, I watched a Mooney with bad brakes unable to stop from a
    > very
    > > slow taxi; it stopped after chewing into a hangar door. I've
    seen
    > > transports do similar since then, because even at idle, airplane
    > > engines are making thrust.
    > >
    > > I got to be an Aero Engineer by working as an A&P and STILL ask
    for
    > > help where I feel rusty, let alone come across something that
    I've
    > not
    > > done before!!! My guess is that you'll press on regardless, but
    > this
    > > is WAY past what's legal (43.13, Appendix A) or common sense.
    > >
    > > Thanks for having enough patience to put up with my little rant,
    > I'll
    > > get off my soap box now.
    > >
    > > Bob
    > > A&P, Aero Eng
    > > --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "emilee013192"
    > > <emilee013192@y...> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Hey All,
    > > >
    > > > Finally got my '65 mouse flying agian, but my left brake
    peddle
    > seem
    > > > to go all the way to the floor when applied---right side
    normal.
    > In
    > > > the AM I will inspect, probably bleed them, then hopefully all
    > will
    > > be
    > > > well. Any other suggestions on what I should check out?
    > > >
    > > > Thanks,
    > > >
    > > > Greg
    > > > N3590R
    > > >
    > >
    >







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  6. #6

    Brake Problem

    I found this to be a thoughtful follow-up from Bob Swaim. I've been staying
    clear of this thread, in hopes that it would clear itself up. Hopefully it
    now has, from all fronts.



    It should be pretty apparent by now that I try to help out anyone on BAC and
    MML who needs assistance (as do many others, including multiple Bobs). Just
    tonight I was on the phone with a member from about 2200 until after 2330.
    Then I went out to the shop to go back to work on parts for two other
    members, until 0130. I am reasonably sure that fellow owners, Club members,
    and MML participants know that all our hearts are in the right place.



    There is no question that I have flinched at some of the posts, just as did
    Bob on the ones that started this thread. I responded offline to some of
    them. Bob Steward, and other experienced technicians, have had the same
    reaction; some published, most unpublished. There have been times when I
    deliberately did not broadcast a response, in hopes someone wouldn't damage
    their plane or hurt themselves, and possibly even blame it on the advice
    they received. For example, there is a very effective method of detecting
    vacuum leaks and worn carb shafts, that is extremely risky in the hands of
    someone inexperienced. I feel like I incur some degree of unprotected risk
    just because of the documents I have published and the parts kits that I
    send out. I am certain others have experienced that feeling when they
    published information. And while I am retired, some others are also sharing
    free information to fellow BAC and MML participants; information that they
    make their living by selling every day to their on-site customers.



    After all, every one of us is capable of "doing something stupid", including
    me. Fortunately, I have found my screw-ups (so far) before they hurt me or
    did too much damage. It's been all of two weeks since I cut a UF power wire
    while planting bordergrass, when I should have known the cable was there.
    The worst part was, the other end wasn't connected yet, and the power was
    off. It wasn't until I finished the wiring a week after the planting, and
    turned the switch on, that the breaker slammed off; clearly a dead short.
    Then the fun began, as the wire had just been bricked up into two 5' tall,
    26" square columns in the front yard, topped with lights. I had visions of
    tearing them back down, etc. Reason prevailed, UF cable is pretty tough,
    and I didn't think that laying bricks could have hurt it. I traced the old
    UF trench marks that were still visible, noticed that a recent bordergrass
    clump was next to it, dug up the planting, saw a big black mark in the dirt,
    and then got lucky. No, I didn't bury the UF, and no, I have no clue why it
    was only six inches deep. I had clipped it with the edge of a sharp shovel,
    while never seeing it. But all's well that ends well. Just goes to show
    ya..



    Having said that, I certainly realize that there are times when a person
    won't appreciate the exposure created by what they are asking. No one
    should take offense if that is pointed out, though not in an unkind way. It
    helps when someone gives some indication of what they intend to do with the
    information, who they plan to get involved, their past experience with the
    particular project aspects, what other research they have done, what
    reference material they have on hand (Shop Manual, IPC, etc), their supply
    of materials and tools, and any other preparation they have done before
    asking. There are many new owners who as yet have no idea what they can do,
    should not attempt, or cannot legally do on their own planes. It may be
    legal for an owner to change their oil, or replace a tire, but there are
    many decent pilots-owners who have no business attempting the tasks. There
    are plenty of good folks out there who can break a crowbar while playing
    with it in a sandbox. My long-departed Father was one of them. My
    technical gene definitely came from my maternal Grandfather.



    Others are perfectly capable (and equipped with manuals, tools, and
    supplies) to replace their interior, and to take on other major challenges.
    A skilled and well-equipped non-A&P owner might do things like use a
    protractor to determine control surface travel, and even check cable
    tension. Legalities aside (it would not be legal), he would be wise to
    involve an experienced A&P before making any changes in the rigging. If he
    has done it before under A&P supervision, and has recorded that in his A&P
    log (so he can eventually apply for the tests and Certification), his A&P
    may well permit him to tackle the next adjustment, and endorse the owner's
    logbook entry. Hopefully, many of our fellow members have begun their
    personal maintenance logs, so their activities can apply toward sitting for
    the A&P exams.



    We all have questions and we all need guidance. All that differs are the
    topics and the scope. The more information included in a question, the more
    thorough the initial responses can be. If a lot of critical information is
    omitted in a question, sometimes it is an indication that the submitter
    isn't yet developed far enough to entrust with a "do it yourself" type of
    answer. If the submitter asks for info to exchange with his A&P to assist
    with more reliable and less-costly troubleshooting, that's fine. That kind
    of feedback is usually more "checklist oriented" than "how-to oriented".



    Thanks for being patient with another one of my late-night short novels.
    I'm hitting the sack, as it is 0255 EST.







    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Bob Swaim
    Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:32 AM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [musketeermail] Re: Brake Problem



    All -
    I've re-read my post and Steve's right in that I came across too
    harsh, so for that I apologize to the poster and the group.
    Further, I really responded this strongly to the wrong post, the
    frustration was more from the previous person telling about how he
    didn't like his A&P, so he wanted to know how to replace his master
    cylinder seals, and what type of fluid to use (Class 3 or 4!). So
    I'll also apologize for addressing the wrong person.

    I also was not saying that these guys couldn't/shouldn't ask
    questions. I spent last Saturday showing a guy how to do his own
    maintenance and have answered numerous posts here. If a person is
    asking so that he can work with his A&P or know what's going on,
    fantastic. If things aren't in the list of what's allowed, but can
    be done safey, that's up to the owner and I've answered some of
    those too.

    The difference was that these posts clearly went past that,
    especially in up-front saying they wanted to do something illegal
    and which can create a problem. How to intentionally avoid any A&P,
    not utilize the maintenance manual, or even the owner's manual.

    There are a lot of things that are NOT approved for owner mx and
    which can create problems unintentionally. Bleeding the brakes and
    rebuilding the master cylinders are there. I should've probably
    answered more like Don did and nicely added that bleeding brakes
    needs to be done with the mechanic. However, bleed your plane's
    brakes like you would a car and you'll create not just soft brakes,
    but diminish their effectiveness if you think you can try to fly
    anyway. (Seen it done) Add Class III or IV car fluid and 5606 will
    turn to mud after a little time, locking up a brake. In a similar
    vein, I've just spent many hours replacing automotive wiring in the
    Sport that I currently am cleaning up, some of which was FAR too
    small a gauge for the installation. Ever seen a small electric
    bundle short creat so much black soot that it obscured the cockpit
    windows?

    So again, sorry for being harsh and I hope people keep asking
    questions. It's a great group.
    Bob
    ps - I'll be on the road for the next week or so. I'll try to catch
    up then.



    _____



    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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