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Thread: back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

  1. #1

    back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    Great discussion and I am learning a lot based on each
    pilot's individual experiences.
    Now, let's get into the 21 st century and talk on how
    we could make sure that our GPS installations ( either
    hand held or panel mounted ) can provide the same back
    up capabilities without having to plumb, add boxes,
    pay 2 grand for more complexity etc.
    Anybody has build " best practices" around using the
    GPS for the backup purpose yet? I have a King 89B and
    KMD 150 moving map connected to a STEC 50 with
    attitude hold and these things are providing you with
    lots of info and back-up " George is now taking
    control of the airplane while I check things out" -
    as long as you have juice.

    BTW: I decided to start monitoring the engine with
    some computer type analysis -one in real time when
    flying -in order to have vacuum and electricity
    available in the first place and installed a JPI 700
    with OAT and OIL

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the Beech
    Drivers and their families.

    HarryR
    B24R 1975 ( back flying again after top overhaul - now
    with JPI 700 to monitor the jugs )


    --- dawsonmic23 <dawsonmi@alltel.net> wrote:

    > i purchased the new Sporty's Backup AI and will
    > install next month
    > with my new audio panel. I also have the Percise
    > Backup Vac
    > System. There is alot of discussion about 'loss of
    > Vac' I have
    > been flying for over 30 years and did have a Vac
    > Pump go bad once
    > but also had 2 AI Gyros fail. The Gyro Fail is the
    > main reason I
    > wanted the Elec AI. A failure of the AI is much
    > more dfficult to
    > detect than a Gryo winding down due to loss of Vac
    > as only one plane
    > of motion may be effected. Crosscheck is the answer
    > for both cases
    > but in the case of the 2 AI failures there was a
    > period of time when
    > there was some question of what was going on since
    > the Vac gage was
    > showing good. The Elec AI gives a more positive and
    > quick
    > crosscheck then using 4 instruments,TC,AS,Alt,VSI
    > for Attitude
    > verifacation as the DG must also be suspect. Of
    > course all
    > insruments must be included in your crosscheck scan.
    > Luckely I will
    > have now both backup Vac and Gyro but if I could
    > only have one I
    > would opt for the AI. The cost is in line with the
    > backup Vac
    > option. I am sure that others will have different
    > opinons due to
    > there experiences but this is my '2 cents worth'
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, Robert Lewis
    > <vpd401@y...>
    > wrote:
    > >
    > > With all the talk about back up AI's, one item
    > that
    > > might be considered to eliminate (much reduce) the
    > > risk of a vacuum failure is to install a wet
    > vacuum
    > > pump. Their are sources out their for these pumps.
    > > Most are rebuilt but they still carry in most
    > cases a
    > > life time warranty. The M-20 system provides the
    > pump,
    > > hardware and oil/air separator, you supply hoses.
    > It
    > > comes with an STC. The price is around 2K
    > complete.
    > > The other option is to buy a pump from the rebuild
    > > source, either in Texas or OK(500 bucks), buy a
    > Beech
    > > air/oils separator(50 bucks all day long on ebay)
    > and
    > > complete the install with a 337. Sigma Tec also
    > sells
    > > a new style dry pump and the reviews coming in are
    > > excellent. They cost about 1800 bucks. The reason
    > I
    > > went with the wet pump vs the electric AI was
    > panel
    > > space and wing leveler requirements. I saw the
    > install
    > > of the wet pump as a way to keep all the equipment
    > I
    > > had without moving or removing anything in my
    > panel. I
    > > also went to the Brittian wing leveler and it is
    > vac
    > > operated. I wanted a proven system that would
    > power
    > > the equipment and provide me with some security. I
    > > looked for articles on failed wet pumps and I
    > found
    > > none. I'm sure it has happened but, all reports
    > are
    > > that mine should last the life of the engine. You
    > do
    > > have the extra plumbing and you need an air/oil
    > > separator as the pump uses engine oil for
    > lubrication.
    > > The sigmatec came out after I made my purchase or,
    > I
    > > may have gone that route. I want to thank all for
    > the
    > > icing information. I found it very informative. As
    > a
    > > new instrument pilot these real life stories are
    > great
    > > reminders of what can happen. The fact that they
    > > occurred in similar aircraft make the information
    > a
    > > reality. Merry Christmas to all.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > __________________________________
    > > Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
    > > http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >





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  2. #2

    back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    ON THE SUBJECT OF BACKUPS-

    The later hand-held Garmins have a Primary Panel page for backup use. Based on the sensitivity I have seen during experimentation, I am satisfied that it would provide a safe way to control the plane in an emergency. I don't know how they do it without solid-state rate sensors, but even the Turn Coordinator representation works remarkably well. If you are running off ship's power, you just need to have fresh batteries in the unit when punching out in the soup, and you'll have backup for everything but complete loss of GPS signal.

    Our 196 is mounted on a small bracket that is Adel-clamped to the left windshield brace, at the corner of the glareshield. There is ship's power right in that corner of the panel (on both sides). The 196 integral antenna picks up fine in this location; as well as the panel mount roof-top antenna. This prevents the wiring clutter, while putting the primary panel page right in the pilot's scan, should it be needed. Of course, if anyone got an extra 396 for Christmas that they want to send me, it may fit that same bracket....

    We have the SVS system to guard against vacuum loss, so that we don't lose vacuum too if the electrics go south.

    We will soon have the Sporty's electric AI to replace the TC, so we will have redundant AI capability. If one AI dies, we will have cross-check capability with the DG, the 106 GPS Primary Panel page, and the other AI (plus the remaining verification instruments for heading and pitch changes).

    We keep a BatteryMINDer connected to the ship's battery whenever we aren't flying or parked away from home. That means that our battery is not only fully charged all the time, it is also being kept de-sulphated all the time, so we don't have an age-related loss of capacity. It always passes the new battery load test.

    Despite the full battery, we carry a compact back-up battery pack that is electronically regulated to limit the max current flow, and is designed to be plugged into the lighter socket. I have personally cranked a 351W V8 with this model battery pack, and it spun the starter faster than a standard battery. This pack is kept connected to the charger setup along with the ship's battery, so it is always fully charged. It is kept within reach during flight ops, to ensure that we have an additional battery supply "just in case". It can operate the main panel gear (within obvious amperage limits), or the handheld VHF-VOR Comm, and the Garmin 196, can be plugged into the pack for standalone backup.

    The VOR in the handheld offers some navigation backup should the GPS signal disappear for an extended time, AND we lose the panel-mount VOR capability due to total loss of electrics. Then there is always that vertical card compass on the glareshield. And if all this stuff craps out at once, and it isn't from a smoking hole, I sure hope I can see outside or there probably WILL be a smoking hole.

    This all just represents a more or less conventional approach to layered backup for attitude control, comm, and nav. Those folks who have been using the more sophisticated equipment (laptops, PDAs, etc.) will have to elaborate on how they are gaining and layering backup for these three needs.


    ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
    From: Harry Roussard <hroussar@yahoo.com>
    Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:25:22 -0800 (PST)

    <html><body>


    <tt>
    Great discussion and I am learning a lot based on each<BR>
    pilot's individual experiences.<BR>
    Now, let's get into the 21 st century and talk on how<BR>
    we could make sure that our GPS installations ( either<BR>
    hand held or panel mounted ) can provide the same back<BR>
    up capabilities without having to plumb, add boxes,<BR>
    pay 2 grand for more complexity etc.<BR>
    Anybody has build " best practices" around using the<BR>
    GPS for the backup purpose yet? I have a King 89B and<BR>
    KMD 150 moving map connected to a STEC 50 with<BR>
    attitude hold and these things are providing you with<BR>
    lots of info and back-up " George is now taking<BR>
    control of the airplane while I check things out" -<BR>
    as long as you have juice.<BR>
    <BR>
    BTW: I decided to start monitoring the engine with<BR>
    some computer type analysis -one in real time when<BR>
    flying -in order to have vacuum and electricity<BR>
    available in the first place and installed a JPI 700<BR>
    with OAT and OIL<BR>
    <BR>
    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the Beech<BR>
    Drivers and their families.<BR>
    <BR>
    HarryR<BR>
    B24R 1975 ( back flying again after top overhaul - now<BR>
    with JPI 700 to monitor the jugs )<BR>




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  3. #3

    back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    My installation has a Garmin GNS 480 driving a King KCS 55 HSI. The
    onlyvacuum gyro is the KG 258 attitude. The Garmin will drive the
    HSi with either Nav radio input (VOR,LOC,ILS) or from GPS. It also
    has a "psuedo" HSI display that will suffice in an emergency. Whn my
    IFR examiner covered the gyros, I immediatley swithced the Garmin to
    the "HSI" display and used that to cross check to the VOR head driven
    form the other NAV radio. In the de-brief he was impressed that I
    had the presence of mind to switch the display. The attitude is
    backed up by the airspeed and altimeter, per normal practice.


    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, Harry Roussard <hroussar@y...>
    wrote:
    >
    > Great discussion and I am learning a lot based on each
    > pilot's individual experiences.
    > Now, let's get into the 21 st century and talk on how
    > we could make sure that our GPS installations ( either
    > hand held or panel mounted ) can provide the same back
    > up capabilities without having to plumb, add boxes,
    > pay 2 grand for more complexity etc.
    > Anybody has build " best practices" around using the
    > GPS for the backup purpose yet? I have a King 89B and
    > KMD 150 moving map connected to a STEC 50 with
    > attitude hold and these things are providing you with
    > lots of info and back-up " George is now taking
    > control of the airplane while I check things out" -
    > as long as you have juice.
    >
    > BTW: I decided to start monitoring the engine with
    > some computer type analysis -one in real time when
    > flying -in order to have vacuum and electricity
    > available in the first place and installed a JPI 700
    > with OAT and OIL
    >
    > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the Beech
    > Drivers and their families.
    >
    > HarryR
    > B24R 1975 ( back flying again after top overhaul - now
    > with JPI 700 to monitor the jugs )
    >
    >
    > --- dawsonmic23 <dawsonmi@a...> wrote:
    >
    > > i purchased the new Sporty's Backup AI and will
    > > install next month
    > > with my new audio panel. I also have the Percise
    > > Backup Vac
    > > System. There is alot of discussion about 'loss of
    > > Vac' I have
    > > been flying for over 30 years and did have a Vac
    > > Pump go bad once
    > > but also had 2 AI Gyros fail. The Gyro Fail is the
    > > main reason I
    > > wanted the Elec AI. A failure of the AI is much
    > > more dfficult to
    > > detect than a Gryo winding down due to loss of Vac
    > > as only one plane
    > > of motion may be effected. Crosscheck is the answer
    > > for both cases
    > > but in the case of the 2 AI failures there was a
    > > period of time when
    > > there was some question of what was going on since
    > > the Vac gage was
    > > showing good. The Elec AI gives a more positive and
    > > quick
    > > crosscheck then using 4 instruments,TC,AS,Alt,VSI
    > > for Attitude
    > > verifacation as the DG must also be suspect. Of
    > > course all
    > > insruments must be included in your crosscheck scan.
    > > Luckely I will
    > > have now both backup Vac and Gyro but if I could
    > > only have one I
    > > would opt for the AI. The cost is in line with the
    > > backup Vac
    > > option. I am sure that others will have different
    > > opinons due to
    > > there experiences but this is my '2 cents worth'
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, Robert Lewis
    > > <vpd401@y...>
    > > wrote:
    > > >
    > > > With all the talk about back up AI's, one item
    > > that
    > > > might be considered to eliminate (much reduce) the
    > > > risk of a vacuum failure is to install a wet
    > > vacuum
    > > > pump. Their are sources out their for these pumps.
    > > > Most are rebuilt but they still carry in most
    > > cases a
    > > > life time warranty. The M-20 system provides the
    > > pump,
    > > > hardware and oil/air separator, you supply hoses.
    > > It
    > > > comes with an STC. The price is around 2K
    > > complete.
    > > > The other option is to buy a pump from the rebuild
    > > > source, either in Texas or OK(500 bucks), buy a
    > > Beech
    > > > air/oils separator(50 bucks all day long on ebay)
    > > and
    > > > complete the install with a 337. Sigma Tec also
    > > sells
    > > > a new style dry pump and the reviews coming in are
    > > > excellent. They cost about 1800 bucks. The reason
    > > I
    > > > went with the wet pump vs the electric AI was
    > > panel
    > > > space and wing leveler requirements. I saw the
    > > install
    > > > of the wet pump as a way to keep all the equipment
    > > I
    > > > had without moving or removing anything in my
    > > panel. I
    > > > also went to the Brittian wing leveler and it is
    > > vac
    > > > operated. I wanted a proven system that would
    > > power
    > > > the equipment and provide me with some security. I
    > > > looked for articles on failed wet pumps and I
    > > found
    > > > none. I'm sure it has happened but, all reports
    > > are
    > > > that mine should last the life of the engine. You
    > > do
    > > > have the extra plumbing and you need an air/oil
    > > > separator as the pump uses engine oil for
    > > lubrication.
    > > > The sigmatec came out after I made my purchase or,
    > > I
    > > > may have gone that route. I want to thank all for
    > > the
    > > > icing information. I found it very informative. As
    > > a
    > > > new instrument pilot these real life stories are
    > > great
    > > > reminders of what can happen. The fact that they
    > > > occurred in similar aircraft make the information
    > > a
    > > > reality. Merry Christmas to all.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > __________________________________
    > > > Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
    > > > http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > __________________________________
    > Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
    > http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
    >






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  4. #4

    back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    Mike, you seem to have a plan A , B, C and D. Well
    done. Now here is a teaser for you'all.
    We running 12 volt ships ( well almost all of us), we
    are also running a (slightly) nose heavy aircraft that
    would be able to do with some weight in the back that
    earns its keep rather than 4 jugs of water or 24 cases
    of oil loaded aboard.
    Has anybody toyed with the idea of having a second 12V
    battery in the back that can be charged from the
    alternator by some ingenious means and that will allow
    for a switch-over if the main battery dies or if the
    alternator stops recharging so you would have another
    45 minutes or 1 hour of juice to keep the lights on??

    The all-electric aircraft have such a back-up system
    in place. Getting something like that approved might
    be an option. No more or additional wires, just
    another toggle switch and you're back in busines.

    Cheers
    HarryR

    Cheers
    HarryR
    --- Michael Rellihan <rellihan@rellihan.com> wrote:

    >
    > ON THE SUBJECT OF BACKUPS-
    >
    > The later hand-held Garmins have a Primary Panel
    > page for backup use. Based on the sensitivity I
    > have seen during experimentation, I am satisfied
    > that it would provide a safe way to control the
    > plane in an emergency. I don't know how they do it
    > without solid-state rate sensors, but even the Turn
    > Coordinator representation works remarkably well.
    > If you are running off ship's power, you just need
    > to have fresh batteries in the unit when punching
    > out in the soup, and you'll have backup for
    > everything but complete loss of GPS signal.
    >
    > Our 196 is mounted on a small bracket that is
    > Adel-clamped to the left windshield brace, at the
    > corner of the glareshield. There is ship's power
    > right in that corner of the panel (on both sides).
    > The 196 integral antenna picks up fine in this
    > location; as well as the panel mount roof-top
    > antenna. This prevents the wiring clutter, while
    > putting the primary panel page right in the pilot's
    > scan, should it be needed. Of course, if anyone got
    > an extra 396 for Christmas that they want to send
    > me, it may fit that same bracket....
    >
    > We have the SVS system to guard against vacuum loss,
    > so that we don't lose vacuum too if the electrics go
    > south.
    >
    > We will soon have the Sporty's electric AI to
    > replace the TC, so we will have redundant AI
    > capability. If one AI dies, we will have
    > cross-check capability with the DG, the 106 GPS
    > Primary Panel page, and the other AI (plus the
    > remaining verification instruments for heading and
    > pitch changes).
    >
    > We keep a BatteryMINDer connected to the ship's
    > battery whenever we aren't flying or parked away
    > from home. That means that our battery is not only
    > fully charged all the time, it is also being kept
    > de-sulphated all the time, so we don't have an
    > age-related loss of capacity. It always passes the
    > new battery load test.
    >
    > Despite the full battery, we carry a compact back-up
    > battery pack that is electronically regulated to
    > limit the max current flow, and is designed to be
    > plugged into the lighter socket. I have personally
    > cranked a 351W V8 with this model battery pack, and
    > it spun the starter faster than a standard battery.
    > This pack is kept connected to the charger setup
    > along with the ship's battery, so it is always fully
    > charged. It is kept within reach during flight ops,
    > to ensure that we have an additional battery supply
    > "just in case". It can operate the main panel gear
    > (within obvious amperage limits), or the handheld
    > VHF-VOR Comm, and the Garmin 196, can be plugged
    > into the pack for standalone backup.
    >
    > The VOR in the handheld offers some navigation
    > backup should the GPS signal disappear for an
    > extended time, AND we lose the panel-mount VOR
    > capability due to total loss of electrics. Then
    > there is always that vertical card compass on the
    > glareshield. And if all this stuff craps out at
    > once, and it isn't from a smoking hole, I sure hope
    > I can see outside or there probably WILL be a
    > smoking hole.
    >
    > This all just represents a more or less conventional
    > approach to layered backup for attitude control,
    > comm, and nav. Those folks who have been using the
    > more sophisticated equipment (laptops, PDAs, etc.)
    > will have to elaborate on how they are gaining and
    > layering backup for these three needs.
    >
    >
    > ---------- Original Message
    > ----------------------------------
    > From: Harry Roussard <hroussar@yahoo.com>
    > Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:25:22 -0800 (PST)
    >
    > <html><body>
    >
    >
    > <tt>
    > Great discussion and I am learning a lot based on
    > each<BR>
    > pilot's individual experiences.<BR>
    > Now, let's get into the 21 st century and talk on
    > how<BR>
    > we could make sure that our GPS installations (
    > either<BR>
    > hand held or panel mounted ) can provide the same
    > back<BR>
    > up capabilities without having to plumb, add
    > boxes,<BR>
    > pay 2 grand for more complexity etc.<BR>
    > Anybody has build " best practices" around using
    > the<BR>
    > GPS for the backup purpose yet? I have a King 89B
    > and<BR>
    > KMD 150 moving map connected to a STEC 50 with<BR>
    > attitude hold and these things are providing you
    > with<BR>
    > lots of info and back-up " George is now taking<BR>
    > control of the airplane while I check things out"
    > -<BR>
    > as long as you have juice.<BR>
    > <BR>
    > BTW: I decided to start monitoring the engine
    > with<BR>
    > some computer type analysis -one in real time
    > when<BR>
    > flying -in order to have vacuum and electricity<BR>
    > available in the first place and installed a JPI
    > 700<BR>
    > with OAT and OIL<BR>
    > <BR>
    > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the
    > Beech<BR>
    > Drivers and their families.<BR>
    > <BR>
    > HarryR<BR>
    > B24R 1975 ( back flying again after top overhaul -
    > now<BR>
    > with JPI 700 to monitor the jugs )<BR>
    >
    >
    >




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  5. #5

    back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    The electrical engineering would be straight forward. The parts are available from West Marine or JC Whitney. Where the geneous is needed is in getting our friends at the FAA to allow such a mundane thing that is used in almost every motor home and cabin type boat in the country.

    Harry Roussard <hroussar@yahoo.com> wrote:
    Mike, you seem to have a plan A , B, C and D. Well
    done. Now here is a teaser for you'all.
    We running 12 volt ships ( well almost all of us), we
    are also running a (slightly) nose heavy aircraft that
    would be able to do with some weight in the back that
    earns its keep rather than 4 jugs of water or 24 cases
    of oil loaded aboard.
    Has anybody toyed with the idea of having a second 12V
    battery in the back that can be charged from the
    alternator by some ingenious means and that will allow
    for a switch-over if the main battery dies or if the
    alternator stops recharging so you would have another
    45 minutes or 1 hour of juice to keep the lights on??

    The all-electric aircraft have such a back-up system
    in place. Getting something like that approved might
    be an option. No more or additional wires, just
    another toggle switch and you're back in busines.

    Cheers
    HarryR

    Cheers
    HarryR
    --- Michael Rellihan wrote:

    >
    > ON THE SUBJECT OF BACKUPS-
    >
    > The later hand-held Garmins have a Primary Panel
    > page for backup use. Based on the sensitivity I
    > have seen during experimentation, I am satisfied
    > that it would provide a safe way to control the
    > plane in an emergency. I don't know how they do it
    > without solid-state rate sensors, but even the Turn
    > Coordinator representation works remarkably well.
    > If you are running off ship's power, you just need
    > to have fresh batteries in the unit when punching
    > out in the soup, and you'll have backup for
    > everything but complete loss of GPS signal.
    >
    > Our 196 is mounted on a small bracket that is
    > Adel-clamped to the left windshield brace, at the
    > corner of the glareshield. There is ship's power
    > right in that corner of the panel (on both sides).
    > The 196 integral antenna picks up fine in this
    > location; as well as the panel mount roof-top
    > antenna. This prevents the wiring clutter, while
    > putting the primary panel page right in the pilot's
    > scan, should it be needed. Of course, if anyone got
    > an extra 396 for Christmas that they want to send
    > me, it may fit that same bracket....
    >
    > We have the SVS system to guard against vacuum loss,
    > so that we don't lose vacuum too if the electrics go
    > south.
    >
    > We will soon have the Sporty's electric AI to
    > replace the TC, so we will have redundant AI
    > capability. If one AI dies, we will have
    > cross-check capability with the DG, the 106 GPS
    > Primary Panel page, and the other AI (plus the
    > remaining verification instruments for heading and
    > pitch changes).
    >
    > We keep a BatteryMINDer connected to the ship's
    > battery whenever we aren't flying or parked away
    > from home. That means that our battery is not only
    > fully charged all the time, it is also being kept
    > de-sulphated all the time, so we don't have an
    > age-related loss of capacity. It always passes the
    > new battery load test.
    >
    > Despite the full battery, we carry a compact back-up
    > battery pack that is electronically regulated to
    > limit the max current flow, and is designed to be
    > plugged into the lighter socket. I have personally
    > cranked a 351W V8 with this model battery pack, and
    > it spun the starter faster than a standard battery.
    > This pack is kept connected to the charger setup
    > along with the ship's battery, so it is always fully
    > charged. It is kept within reach during flight ops,
    > to ensure that we have an additional battery supply
    > "just in case". It can operate the main panel gear
    > (within obvious amperage limits), or the handheld
    > VHF-VOR Comm, and the Garmin 196, can be plugged
    > into the pack for standalone backup.
    >
    > The VOR in the handheld offers some navigation
    > backup should the GPS signal disappear for an
    > extended time, AND we lose the panel-mount VOR
    > capability due to total loss of electrics. Then
    > there is always that vertical card compass on the
    > glareshield. And if all this stuff craps out at
    > once, and it isn't from a smoking hole, I sure hope
    > I can see outside or there probably WILL be a
    > smoking hole.
    >
    > This all just represents a more or less conventional
    > approach to layered backup for attitude control,
    > comm, and nav. Those folks who have been using the
    > more sophisticated equipment (laptops, PDAs, etc.)
    > will have to elaborate on how they are gaining and
    > layering backup for these three needs.
    >
    >
    > ---------- Original Message
    > ----------------------------------
    > From: Harry Roussard
    ---------------------------------

    > Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:25:22 -0800 (PST)
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Great discussion and I am learning a lot based on
    > each

    > pilot's individual experiences.

    > Now, let's get into the 21 st century and talk on
    > how

    > we could make sure that our GPS installations (
    > either

    > hand held or panel mounted ) can provide the same
    > back

    > up capabilities without having to plumb, add
    > boxes,

    > pay 2 grand for more complexity etc.

    > Anybody has build " best practices" around using
    > the

    > GPS for the backup purpose yet? I have a King 89B
    > and

    > KMD 150 moving map connected to a STEC 50 with

    > attitude hold and these things are providing you
    > with

    > lots of info and back-up " George is now taking

    > control of the airplane while I check things out"
    > -

    > as long as you have juice.

    >

    > BTW: I decided to start monitoring the engine
    > with

    > some computer type analysis -one in real time
    > when

    > flying -in order to have vacuum and electricity

    > available in the first place and installed a JPI
    > 700

    > with OAT and OIL

    >

    > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the
    > Beech

    > Drivers and their families.

    >

    > HarryR

    > B24R 1975 ( back flying again after top overhaul -
    > now

    > with JPI 700 to monitor the jugs )

    >
    >
    >




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    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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  6. #6

    back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    There is a generator that replaces the vacuum pump. Experimental
    aircraft only. It is used to create a "separate" or emergency bus
    for the AI and other gyros. If the main generator fails the backup
    generator keeps you going.

    It is restricted to experimental aircraft as it is not TSO'd.
    Probably couldn't get a STC for it either. Might work for a 337 but
    that is unlikley. Strightforward elex engineering to make it work,
    but the company won't pursue TSO certification...


    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, WILLIS COOKE <wrcooke@f...>
    wrote:
    >
    > The electrical engineering would be straight forward. The parts
    are available from West Marine or JC Whitney. Where the geneous is
    needed is in getting our friends at the FAA to allow such a mundane
    thing that is used in almost every motor home and cabin type boat in
    the country.
    >
    > Harry Roussard <hroussar@y...> wrote:
    > Mike, you seem to have a plan A , B, C and D. Well
    > done. Now here is a teaser for you'all.
    > We running 12 volt ships ( well almost all of us), we
    > are also running a (slightly) nose heavy aircraft that
    > would be able to do with some weight in the back that
    > earns its keep rather than 4 jugs of water or 24 cases
    > of oil loaded aboard.
    > Has anybody toyed with the idea of having a second 12V
    > battery in the back that can be charged from the
    > alternator by some ingenious means and that will allow
    > for a switch-over if the main battery dies or if the
    > alternator stops recharging so you would have another
    > 45 minutes or 1 hour of juice to keep the lights on??
    >
    > The all-electric aircraft have such a back-up system
    > in place. Getting something like that approved might
    > be an option. No more or additional wires, just
    > another toggle switch and you're back in busines.
    >
    > Cheers
    > HarryR
    >
    > Cheers
    > HarryR
    > --- Michael Rellihan wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > ON THE SUBJECT OF BACKUPS-
    > >
    > > The later hand-held Garmins have a Primary Panel
    > > page for backup use. Based on the sensitivity I
    > > have seen during experimentation, I am satisfied
    > > that it would provide a safe way to control the
    > > plane in an emergency. I don't know how they do it
    > > without solid-state rate sensors, but even the Turn
    > > Coordinator representation works remarkably well.
    > > If you are running off ship's power, you just need
    > > to have fresh batteries in the unit when punching
    > > out in the soup, and you'll have backup for
    > > everything but complete loss of GPS signal.
    > >
    > > Our 196 is mounted on a small bracket that is
    > > Adel-clamped to the left windshield brace, at the
    > > corner of the glareshield. There is ship's power
    > > right in that corner of the panel (on both sides).
    > > The 196 integral antenna picks up fine in this
    > > location; as well as the panel mount roof-top
    > > antenna. This prevents the wiring clutter, while
    > > putting the primary panel page right in the pilot's
    > > scan, should it be needed. Of course, if anyone got
    > > an extra 396 for Christmas that they want to send
    > > me, it may fit that same bracket....
    > >
    > > We have the SVS system to guard against vacuum loss,
    > > so that we don't lose vacuum too if the electrics go
    > > south.
    > >
    > > We will soon have the Sporty's electric AI to
    > > replace the TC, so we will have redundant AI
    > > capability. If one AI dies, we will have
    > > cross-check capability with the DG, the 106 GPS
    > > Primary Panel page, and the other AI (plus the
    > > remaining verification instruments for heading and
    > > pitch changes).
    > >
    > > We keep a BatteryMINDer connected to the ship's
    > > battery whenever we aren't flying or parked away
    > > from home. That means that our battery is not only
    > > fully charged all the time, it is also being kept
    > > de-sulphated all the time, so we don't have an
    > > age-related loss of capacity. It always passes the
    > > new battery load test.
    > >
    > > Despite the full battery, we carry a compact back-up
    > > battery pack that is electronically regulated to
    > > limit the max current flow, and is designed to be
    > > plugged into the lighter socket. I have personally
    > > cranked a 351W V8 with this model battery pack, and
    > > it spun the starter faster than a standard battery.
    > > This pack is kept connected to the charger setup
    > > along with the ship's battery, so it is always fully
    > > charged. It is kept within reach during flight ops,
    > > to ensure that we have an additional battery supply
    > > "just in case". It can operate the main panel gear
    > > (within obvious amperage limits), or the handheld
    > > VHF-VOR Comm, and the Garmin 196, can be plugged
    > > into the pack for standalone backup.
    > >
    > > The VOR in the handheld offers some navigation
    > > backup should the GPS signal disappear for an
    > > extended time, AND we lose the panel-mount VOR
    > > capability due to total loss of electrics. Then
    > > there is always that vertical card compass on the
    > > glareshield. And if all this stuff craps out at
    > > once, and it isn't from a smoking hole, I sure hope
    > > I can see outside or there probably WILL be a
    > > smoking hole.
    > >
    > > This all just represents a more or less conventional
    > > approach to layered backup for attitude control,
    > > comm, and nav. Those folks who have been using the
    > > more sophisticated equipment (laptops, PDAs, etc.)
    > > will have to elaborate on how they are gaining and
    > > layering backup for these three needs.
    > >
    > >
    > > ---------- Original Message
    > > ----------------------------------
    > > From: Harry Roussard
    > ---------------------------------
    >
    > > Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:25:22 -0800 (PST)
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Great discussion and I am learning a lot based on
    > > each
    >
    > > pilot's individual experiences.
    >
    > > Now, let's get into the 21 st century and talk on
    > > how
    >
    > > we could make sure that our GPS installations (
    > > either
    >
    > > hand held or panel mounted ) can provide the same
    > > back
    >
    > > up capabilities without having to plumb, add
    > > boxes,
    >
    > > pay 2 grand for more complexity etc.
    >
    > > Anybody has build " best practices" around using
    > > the
    >
    > > GPS for the backup purpose yet? I have a King 89B
    > > and
    >
    > > KMD 150 moving map connected to a STEC 50 with
    >
    > > attitude hold and these things are providing you
    > > with
    >
    > > lots of info and back-up " George is now taking
    >
    > > control of the airplane while I check things out"
    > > -
    >
    > > as long as you have juice.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > BTW: I decided to start monitoring the engine
    > > with
    >
    > > some computer type analysis -one in real time
    > > when
    >
    > > flying -in order to have vacuum and electricity
    >
    > > available in the first place and installed a JPI
    > > 700
    >
    > > with OAT and OIL
    >
    > >
    >
    > > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the
    > > Beech
    >
    > > Drivers and their families.
    >
    > >
    >
    > > HarryR
    >
    > > B24R 1975 ( back flying again after top overhaul -
    > > now
    >
    > > with JPI 700 to monitor the jugs )
    >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > __________________________________________
    > Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
    > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
    > dsl.yahoo.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the
    Musketeer series!
    >
    > www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    >






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  7. #7

    back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    Since we don't have a split buss, I'm not sure that a second main battery should really require isolation (to gain most of the practical benefits). A very simple methodology would just be a second battery box and battery, cabled in parallel. As long as the batteries are the same, and are replaced as a pair when either one fails a load test, the parallel installation would basically double the back-up run time with a charging failure; and with no complications or switching. If the Beech box and mounting is used, I would think that a 337 installation would be pretty straightforward. Just makes for an expensive case of water. If you get into switching (especially remote switching), and in the absence of TSO'd parts, approvals could be much harder to get.

    If you don't mind the money and paperwork for the more potentially useful aft ballast, go for it. Otherwise a compact plug-in battery pack good for fifteen minutes or so, coupled with a well-maintained primary battery, will be far less expensive. From a BAC standpoint, pursuing a compact plug-in power pack, applicable to all the planes, might prove much more cost-effective than a second permanent battery installation. The latter would have to be engineered for any airframe variations, while a plug-in unit would be universal.



    ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
    From: Harry Roussard <hroussar@yahoo.com>
    Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 09:37:02 -0800 (PST)

    <html><body>


    <tt>
    <BR>
    Mike, you seem to have a plan A , B, C and D. Well<BR>
    done. Now here is a teaser for you'all.<BR>
    We running 12 volt ships ( well almost all of us), we<BR>
    are also running a (slightly) nose heavy aircraft that<BR>
    would be able to do with some weight in the back that<BR>
    earns its keep rather than 4 jugs of water or 24 cases<BR>
    of oil loaded aboard.<BR>
    Has anybody toyed with the idea of having a second 12V<BR>
    battery in the back that can be charged from the<BR>
    alternator by some ingenious means and that will allow<BR>
    for a switch-over if the main battery dies or if the<BR>
    alternator stops recharging so you would have another<BR>
    45 minutes or 1 hour of juice to keep the lights on??<BR>
    <BR>
    The all-electric aircraft have such a back-up system<BR>
    in place. Getting something like that approved might<BR>
    be an option. No more or additional wires, just<BR>
    another toggle switch and you're back in busines.<BR>



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  8. #8

    back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    Getting a field approval for this would be quite straight-forward,
    using the switch, diode, and relay from any of the glass-cockpit
    installations as the parts source and engineering basis (same-as).
    However, it's a hit in usable load of probably a 35+ pounds, plus
    cost, space, & maintenance.
    Bob
    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, Harry Roussard <hroussar@y...>
    wrote:
    >
    >
    > Mike, you seem to have a plan A , B, C and D. Well
    > done. Now here is a teaser for you'all.
    > We running 12 volt ships ( well almost all of us), we
    > are also running a (slightly) nose heavy aircraft that
    > would be able to do with some weight in the back that
    > earns its keep rather than 4 jugs of water or 24 cases
    > of oil loaded aboard.
    > Has anybody toyed with the idea of having a second 12V
    > battery in the back that can be charged from the
    > alternator by some ingenious means and that will allow
    > for a switch-over if the main battery dies or if the
    > alternator stops recharging so you would have another
    > 45 minutes or 1 hour of juice to keep the lights on??
    >
    > The all-electric aircraft have such a back-up system
    > in place. Getting something like that approved might
    > be an option. No more or additional wires, just
    > another toggle switch and you're back in busines.
    >
    > Cheers
    > HarryR
    >
    > Cheers
    > HarryR
    > --- Michael Rellihan <rellihan@r...> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > ON THE SUBJECT OF BACKUPS-
    > >
    > > The later hand-held Garmins have a Primary Panel
    > > page for backup use. Based on the sensitivity I
    > > have seen during experimentation, I am satisfied
    > > that it would provide a safe way to control the
    > > plane in an emergency. I don't know how they do it
    > > without solid-state rate sensors, but even the Turn
    > > Coordinator representation works remarkably well.
    > > If you are running off ship's power, you just need
    > > to have fresh batteries in the unit when punching
    > > out in the soup, and you'll have backup for
    > > everything but complete loss of GPS signal.
    > >
    > > Our 196 is mounted on a small bracket that is
    > > Adel-clamped to the left windshield brace, at the
    > > corner of the glareshield. There is ship's power
    > > right in that corner of the panel (on both sides).
    > > The 196 integral antenna picks up fine in this
    > > location; as well as the panel mount roof-top
    > > antenna. This prevents the wiring clutter, while
    > > putting the primary panel page right in the pilot's
    > > scan, should it be needed. Of course, if anyone got
    > > an extra 396 for Christmas that they want to send
    > > me, it may fit that same bracket....
    > >
    > > We have the SVS system to guard against vacuum loss,
    > > so that we don't lose vacuum too if the electrics go
    > > south.
    > >
    > > We will soon have the Sporty's electric AI to
    > > replace the TC, so we will have redundant AI
    > > capability. If one AI dies, we will have
    > > cross-check capability with the DG, the 106 GPS
    > > Primary Panel page, and the other AI (plus the
    > > remaining verification instruments for heading and
    > > pitch changes).
    > >
    > > We keep a BatteryMINDer connected to the ship's
    > > battery whenever we aren't flying or parked away
    > > from home. That means that our battery is not only
    > > fully charged all the time, it is also being kept
    > > de-sulphated all the time, so we don't have an
    > > age-related loss of capacity. It always passes the
    > > new battery load test.
    > >
    > > Despite the full battery, we carry a compact back-up
    > > battery pack that is electronically regulated to
    > > limit the max current flow, and is designed to be
    > > plugged into the lighter socket. I have personally
    > > cranked a 351W V8 with this model battery pack, and
    > > it spun the starter faster than a standard battery.
    > > This pack is kept connected to the charger setup
    > > along with the ship's battery, so it is always fully
    > > charged. It is kept within reach during flight ops,
    > > to ensure that we have an additional battery supply
    > > "just in case". It can operate the main panel gear
    > > (within obvious amperage limits), or the handheld
    > > VHF-VOR Comm, and the Garmin 196, can be plugged
    > > into the pack for standalone backup.
    > >
    > > The VOR in the handheld offers some navigation
    > > backup should the GPS signal disappear for an
    > > extended time, AND we lose the panel-mount VOR
    > > capability due to total loss of electrics. Then
    > > there is always that vertical card compass on the
    > > glareshield. And if all this stuff craps out at
    > > once, and it isn't from a smoking hole, I sure hope
    > > I can see outside or there probably WILL be a
    > > smoking hole.
    > >
    > > This all just represents a more or less conventional
    > > approach to layered backup for attitude control,
    > > comm, and nav. Those folks who have been using the
    > > more sophisticated equipment (laptops, PDAs, etc.)
    > > will have to elaborate on how they are gaining and
    > > layering backup for these three needs.
    > >
    > >
    > > ---------- Original Message
    > > ----------------------------------
    > > From: Harry Roussard <hroussar@y...>
    > > Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:25:22 -0800 (PST)
    > >
    > > <html><body>
    > >
    > >
    > > <tt>
    > > Great discussion and I am learning a lot based on
    > > each<BR>
    > > pilot's individual experiences.<BR>
    > > Now, let's get into the 21 st century and talk on
    > > how<BR>
    > > we could make sure that our GPS installations (
    > > either<BR>
    > > hand held or panel mounted ) can provide the same
    > > back<BR>
    > > up capabilities without having to plumb, add
    > > boxes,<BR>
    > > pay 2 grand for more complexity etc.<BR>
    > > Anybody has build " best practices" around using
    > > the<BR>
    > > GPS for the backup purpose yet? I have a King 89B
    > > and<BR>
    > > KMD 150 moving map connected to a STEC 50 with<BR>
    > > attitude hold and these things are providing you
    > > with<BR>
    > > lots of info and back-up " George is now taking<BR>
    > > control of the airplane while I check things out"
    > > -<BR>
    > > as long as you have juice.<BR>
    > > <BR>
    > > BTW: I decided to start monitoring the engine
    > > with<BR>
    > > some computer type analysis -one in real time
    > > when<BR>
    > > flying -in order to have vacuum and electricity<BR>
    > > available in the first place and installed a JPI
    > > 700<BR>
    > > with OAT and OIL<BR>
    > > <BR>
    > > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the
    > > Beech<BR>
    > > Drivers and their families.<BR>
    > > <BR>
    > > HarryR<BR>
    > > B24R 1975 ( back flying again after top overhaul -
    > > now<BR>
    > > with JPI 700 to monitor the jugs )<BR>
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > __________________________________________
    > Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
    > Just $16.99/mo. or less.
    > dsl.yahoo.com
    >






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  9. #9

    back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    My preference without consideration of 337 difficulties would be to mount the second battery box near the existing one and connect the two batteries with an Isolation diode. It will prevent the second battery from being discharged with cranking. It will allow the alternator to charge both batteries with the cranking battery getting priority because of the 0.5 volt drop across the isolation diode. I double throw switch with center off would allow you to select either battery for the radio stack and anything you choose to put on that bus. Heavy duty diodes with heat sink are readily available through automotive and marine sources with instructions for connecting the batteries.

    A problem with paralleling batteries is that if one has a shorted cell it will drain the good battery. When paralleling batteries one should use the same type batteries and replace both if you replace one. One would be better off to obtain a single 70 amp-hour battery and install a larger battery box than to use two 35 amp hour batteries. My aircraft battery sources don't include such and they may not be manufactured in 12 volt for aircraft. They are widely available in automotive and marine products.

    I personally carry a few tools and survival gear for ballast rather than water jugs or cases of oil. I assume whoever was using the oil for ballast meant 24 quarts rather than 24 cases. I think 24 cases might overdo it a bit. (G)

    Michael Rellihan <rellihan@rellihan.com> wrote: Since we don't have a split buss, I'm not sure that a second main battery should really require isolation (to gain most of the practical benefits). A very simple methodology would just be a second battery box and battery, cabled in parallel. As long as the batteries are the same, and are replaced as a pair when either one fails a load test, the parallel installation would basically double the back-up run time with a charging failure; and with no complications or switching. If the Beech box and mounting is used, I would think that a 337 installation would be pretty straightforward. Just makes for an expensive case of water. If you get into switching (especially remote switching), and in the absence of TSO'd parts, approvals could be much harder to get.

    If you don't mind the money and paperwork for the more potentially useful aft ballast, go for it. Otherwise a compact plug-in battery pack good for fifteen minutes or so, coupled with a well-maintained primary battery, will be far less expensive. From a BAC standpoint, pursuing a compact plug-in power pack, applicable to all the planes, might prove much more cost-effective than a second permanent battery installation. The latter would have to be engineered for any airframe variations, while a plug-in unit would be universal.



    ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
    From: Harry Roussard
    ---------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 09:37:02 -0800 (PST)







    Mike, you seem to have a plan A , B, C and D. Well

    done. Now here is a teaser for you'all.

    We running 12 volt ships ( well almost all of us), we

    are also running a (slightly) nose heavy aircraft that

    would be able to do with some weight in the back that

    earns its keep rather than 4 jugs of water or 24 cases

    of oil loaded aboard.

    Has anybody toyed with the idea of having a second 12V

    battery in the back that can be charged from the

    alternator by some ingenious means and that will allow

    for a switch-over if the main battery dies or if the

    alternator stops recharging so you would have another

    45 minutes or 1 hour of juice to keep the lights on??



    The all-electric aircraft have such a back-up system

    in place. Getting something like that approved might

    be an option. No more or additional wires, just

    another toggle switch and you're back in busines.





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