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Thread: [musketeermail] back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

  1. #1

    [musketeermail] back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    ON THE SUBJECT OF BACKUPS-

    The later hand-held Garmins have a Primary Panel page for backup use. Based on the sensitivity I have seen during experimentation, I am satisfied that it would provide a safe way to control the plane in an emergency. I don't know how they do it without solid-state rate sensors, but even the Turn Coordinator representation works remarkably well. If you are running off ship's power, you just need to have fresh batteries in the unit when punching out in the soup, and you'll have backup for everything but complete loss of GPS signal.

    Our 196 is mounted on a small bracket that is Adel-clamped to the left windshield brace, at the corner of the glareshield. There is ship's power right in that corner of the panel (on both sides). The 196 integral antenna picks up fine in this location; as well as the panel mount roof-top antenna. This prevents the wiring clutter, while putting the primary panel page right in the pilot's scan, should it be needed. Of course, if anyone got an extra 396 for Christmas that they want to send me, it may fit that same bracket....

    We have the SVS system to guard against vacuum loss, so that we don't lose vacuum too if the electrics go south.

    We will soon have the Sporty's electric AI to replace the TC, so we will have redundant AI capability. If one AI dies, we will have cross-check capability with the DG, the 106 GPS Primary Panel page, and the other AI (plus the remaining verification instruments for heading and pitch changes).

    We keep a BatteryMINDer connected to the ship's battery whenever we aren't flying or parked away from home. That means that our battery is not only fully charged all the time, it is also being kept de-sulphated all the time, so we don't have an age-related loss of capacity. It always passes the new battery load test.

    Despite the full battery, we carry a compact back-up battery pack that is electronically regulated to limit the max current flow, and is designed to be plugged into the lighter socket. I have personally cranked a 351W V8 with this model battery pack, and it spun the starter faster than a standard battery. This pack is kept connected to the charger setup along with the ship's battery, so it is always fully charged. It is kept within reach during flight ops, to ensure that we have an additional battery supply "just in case". It can operate the main panel gear (within obvious amperage limits), or the handheld VHF-VOR Comm, and the Garmin 196, can be plugged into the pack for standalone backup.

    The VOR in the handheld offers some navigation backup should the GPS signal disappear for an extended time, AND we lose the panel-mount VOR capability due to total loss of electrics. Then there is always that vertical card compass on the glareshield. And if all this stuff craps out at once, and it isn't from a smoking hole, I sure hope I can see outside or there probably WILL be a smoking hole.

    This all just represents a more or less conventional approach to layered backup for attitude control, comm, and nav. Those folks who have been using the more sophisticated equipment (laptops, PDAs, etc.) will have to elaborate on how they are gaining and layering backup for these three needs.


    ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
    From: Harry Roussard <hroussar@yahoo.com>
    Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:25:22 -0800 (PST)

    <html><body>


    <tt>
    Great discussion and I am learning a lot based on each<BR>
    pilot's individual experiences.<BR>
    Now, let's get into the 21 st century and talk on how<BR>
    we could make sure that our GPS installations ( either<BR>
    hand held or panel mounted ) can provide the same back<BR>
    up capabilities without having to plumb, add boxes,<BR>
    pay 2 grand for more complexity etc.<BR>
    Anybody has build " best practices" around using the<BR>
    GPS for the backup purpose yet? I have a King 89B and<BR>
    KMD 150 moving map connected to a STEC 50 with<BR>
    attitude hold and these things are providing you with<BR>
    lots of info and back-up " George is now taking<BR>
    control of the airplane while I check things out" -<BR>
    as long as you have juice.<BR>
    <BR>
    BTW: I decided to start monitoring the engine with<BR>
    some computer type analysis -one in real time when<BR>
    flying -in order to have vacuum and electricity<BR>
    available in the first place and installed a JPI 700<BR>
    with OAT and OIL<BR>
    <BR>
    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the Beech<BR>
    Drivers and their families.<BR>
    <BR>
    HarryR<BR>
    B24R 1975 ( back flying again after top overhaul - now<BR>
    with JPI 700 to monitor the jugs )<BR>


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  2. #2

    [musketeermail] back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    Mike, you seem to have a plan A , B, C and D. Well
    done. Now here is a teaser for you'all.
    We running 12 volt ships ( well almost all of us), we
    are also running a (slightly) nose heavy aircraft that
    would be able to do with some weight in the back that
    earns its keep rather than 4 jugs of water or 24 cases
    of oil loaded aboard.
    Has anybody toyed with the idea of having a second 12V
    battery in the back that can be charged from the
    alternator by some ingenious means and that will allow
    for a switch-over if the main battery dies or if the
    alternator stops recharging so you would have another
    45 minutes or 1 hour of juice to keep the lights on??

    The all-electric aircraft have such a back-up system
    in place. Getting something like that approved might
    be an option. No more or additional wires, just
    another toggle switch and you're back in busines.

    Cheers
    HarryR

    Cheers
    HarryR
    --- Michael Rellihan <rellihan@rellihan.com> wrote:

    >
    > ON THE SUBJECT OF BACKUPS-
    >
    > The later hand-held Garmins have a Primary Panel
    > page for backup use. Based on the sensitivity I
    > have seen during experimentation, I am satisfied
    > that it would provide a safe way to control the
    > plane in an emergency. I don't know how they do it
    > without solid-state rate sensors, but even the Turn
    > Coordinator representation works remarkably well.
    > If you are running off ship's power, you just need
    > to have fresh batteries in the unit when punching
    > out in the soup, and you'll have backup for
    > everything but complete loss of GPS signal.
    >
    > Our 196 is mounted on a small bracket that is
    > Adel-clamped to the left windshield brace, at the
    > corner of the glareshield. There is ship's power
    > right in that corner of the panel (on both sides).
    > The 196 integral antenna picks up fine in this
    > location; as well as the panel mount roof-top
    > antenna. This prevents the wiring clutter, while
    > putting the primary panel page right in the pilot's
    > scan, should it be needed. Of course, if anyone got
    > an extra 396 for Christmas that they want to send
    > me, it may fit that same bracket....
    >
    > We have the SVS system to guard against vacuum loss,
    > so that we don't lose vacuum too if the electrics go
    > south.
    >
    > We will soon have the Sporty's electric AI to
    > replace the TC, so we will have redundant AI
    > capability. If one AI dies, we will have
    > cross-check capability with the DG, the 106 GPS
    > Primary Panel page, and the other AI (plus the
    > remaining verification instruments for heading and
    > pitch changes).
    >
    > We keep a BatteryMINDer connected to the ship's
    > battery whenever we aren't flying or parked away
    > from home. That means that our battery is not only
    > fully charged all the time, it is also being kept
    > de-sulphated all the time, so we don't have an
    > age-related loss of capacity. It always passes the
    > new battery load test.
    >
    > Despite the full battery, we carry a compact back-up
    > battery pack that is electronically regulated to
    > limit the max current flow, and is designed to be
    > plugged into the lighter socket. I have personally
    > cranked a 351W V8 with this model battery pack, and
    > it spun the starter faster than a standard battery.
    > This pack is kept connected to the charger setup
    > along with the ship's battery, so it is always fully
    > charged. It is kept within reach during flight ops,
    > to ensure that we have an additional battery supply
    > "just in case". It can operate the main panel gear
    > (within obvious amperage limits), or the handheld
    > VHF-VOR Comm, and the Garmin 196, can be plugged
    > into the pack for standalone backup.
    >
    > The VOR in the handheld offers some navigation
    > backup should the GPS signal disappear for an
    > extended time, AND we lose the panel-mount VOR
    > capability due to total loss of electrics. Then
    > there is always that vertical card compass on the
    > glareshield. And if all this stuff craps out at
    > once, and it isn't from a smoking hole, I sure hope
    > I can see outside or there probably WILL be a
    > smoking hole.
    >
    > This all just represents a more or less conventional
    > approach to layered backup for attitude control,
    > comm, and nav. Those folks who have been using the
    > more sophisticated equipment (laptops, PDAs, etc.)
    > will have to elaborate on how they are gaining and
    > layering backup for these three needs.
    >
    >
    > ---------- Original Message
    > ----------------------------------
    > From: Harry Roussard <hroussar@yahoo.com>
    > Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2005 10:25:22 -0800 (PST)
    >
    > <html><body>
    >
    >
    > <tt>
    > Great discussion and I am learning a lot based on
    > each<BR>
    > pilot's individual experiences.<BR>
    > Now, let's get into the 21 st century and talk on
    > how<BR>
    > we could make sure that our GPS installations (
    > either<BR>
    > hand held or panel mounted ) can provide the same
    > back<BR>
    > up capabilities without having to plumb, add
    > boxes,<BR>
    > pay 2 grand for more complexity etc.<BR>
    > Anybody has build " best practices" around using
    > the<BR>
    > GPS for the backup purpose yet? I have a King 89B
    > and<BR>
    > KMD 150 moving map connected to a STEC 50 with<BR>
    > attitude hold and these things are providing you
    > with<BR>
    > lots of info and back-up " George is now taking<BR>
    > control of the airplane while I check things out"
    > -<BR>
    > as long as you have juice.<BR>
    > <BR>
    > BTW: I decided to start monitoring the engine
    > with<BR>
    > some computer type analysis -one in real time
    > when<BR>
    > flying -in order to have vacuum and electricity<BR>
    > available in the first place and installed a JPI
    > 700<BR>
    > with OAT and OIL<BR>
    > <BR>
    > Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the
    > Beech<BR>
    > Drivers and their families.<BR>
    > <BR>
    > HarryR<BR>
    > B24R 1975 ( back flying again after top overhaul -
    > now<BR>
    > with JPI 700 to monitor the jugs )<BR>
    >
    >
    >




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  3. #3

    [musketeermail] back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    Since we don't have a split buss, I'm not sure that a second main battery should really require isolation (to gain most of the practical benefits). A very simple methodology would just be a second battery box and battery, cabled in parallel. As long as the batteries are the same, and are replaced as a pair when either one fails a load test, the parallel installation would basically double the back-up run time with a charging failure; and with no complications or switching. If the Beech box and mounting is used, I would think that a 337 installation would be pretty straightforward. Just makes for an expensive case of water. If you get into switching (especially remote switching), and in the absence of TSO'd parts, approvals could be much harder to get.

    If you don't mind the money and paperwork for the more potentially useful aft ballast, go for it. Otherwise a compact plug-in battery pack good for fifteen minutes or so, coupled with a well-maintained primary battery, will be far less expensive. From a BAC standpoint, pursuing a compact plug-in power pack, applicable to all the planes, might prove much more cost-effective than a second permanent battery installation. The latter would have to be engineered for any airframe variations, while a plug-in unit would be universal.



    ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
    From: Harry Roussard <hroussar@yahoo.com>
    Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 09:37:02 -0800 (PST)

    <html><body>


    <tt>
    <BR>
    Mike, you seem to have a plan A , B, C and D. Well<BR>
    done. Now here is a teaser for you'all.<BR>
    We running 12 volt ships ( well almost all of us), we<BR>
    are also running a (slightly) nose heavy aircraft that<BR>
    would be able to do with some weight in the back that<BR>
    earns its keep rather than 4 jugs of water or 24 cases<BR>
    of oil loaded aboard.<BR>
    Has anybody toyed with the idea of having a second 12V<BR>
    battery in the back that can be charged from the<BR>
    alternator by some ingenious means and that will allow<BR>
    for a switch-over if the main battery dies or if the<BR>
    alternator stops recharging so you would have another<BR>
    45 minutes or 1 hour of juice to keep the lights on??<BR>
    <BR>
    The all-electric aircraft have such a back-up system<BR>
    in place. Getting something like that approved might<BR>
    be an option. No more or additional wires, just<BR>
    another toggle switch and you're back in busines.<BR>

    _______________________________________________
    BAC-Mail mailing list
    BAC-Mail@beechaeroclub.org
    http://www.beechaeroclub.org/mailman/listinfo/bac-mail

  4. #4

    [musketeermail] back up AI - or other ways to back-up?

    In a message dated 25/12/2005 8:32:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
    jerry@tr2.com writes:

    >
    > ON THE SUBJECT OF BACKUPS-
    A few more things & info.

    jon




    _http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/el/powerbackupemergency.html_
    (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/...emergency.html)

    _http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/turboalt.php_
    (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalo...s/turboalt.php)





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