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Thread: emergency sierra landing thought

  1. #1

    emergency sierra landing thought

    Paul,

    AOPA has a great training program called the Pinch Hitter Program.
    This allows your significant other (or anyone else you fly with on
    occasion) to get a few lessons from a flight instructor, on an annual
    basis, on what to do in case of an emergency. Although this training
    wouldn't be enough to get a license and remain current, it would be
    enough to help provide an autonomic response during an emergency.

    As to the question at hand, although I've never flown a Sierra, I do
    have quite some time in a Sport. I know that Musketeers have a bad
    rep for poor landings, only due to pilot technique. I believe the
    added flight training through the pinch hitter program would increase
    the passenger's chances of making a safe landing.

    About the landing with gear down or on the belly, even with a belly
    landing, pilot technique is very important. Even belly landings have
    a specific technique. If a pilot were to not have some sort of flare,
    I believe belly landings could have much more dire consequences than
    wheel landings.

    Again, just opinion. Hopefully none of us will have to go through
    this and actually find out.

    Ray

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, Paul Werbin <paulwerbin@...>
    wrote:
    >
    > During a recent discussion with a bunch of pilots the
    > topic of the rare non-pilot emergency landing came up.
    > I am thinking that given the nature of bad sierra
    > landings (nose wheel pogo etc.)and the relatively
    > benign effects of gear up landings I will recommend
    > that in the case of pilot incapacitation and emerg.
    > landing by the untrained passenger that the gear be
    > left up. Anybody else ever think about this stuff?
    > Paul
    >
    > __________________________________________________
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  2. #2

    emergency sierra landing thought

    One last thing about the pinch hitter program, make sure to advise
    your insurance company. It shouldn't be a problem, but they need to
    know to have it on file.

    Ray

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, Paul Werbin <paulwerbin@...>
    wrote:
    >
    > During a recent discussion with a bunch of pilots the
    > topic of the rare non-pilot emergency landing came up.
    > I am thinking that given the nature of bad sierra
    > landings (nose wheel pogo etc.)and the relatively
    > benign effects of gear up landings I will recommend
    > that in the case of pilot incapacitation and emerg.
    > landing by the untrained passenger that the gear be
    > left up. Anybody else ever think about this stuff?
    > Paul
    >
    > __________________________________________________
    > Do You Yahoo!?
    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    > http://mail.yahoo.com
    >







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  3. #3

    emergency sierra landing thought

    My 18-year-old daughter likes to fly with me in the Sport (not in
    Cessnas at all), but doesn't want to fly the airplane. When we had
    the same "what if" question, we went to an neighboring airport with
    a wide 3000 foot runway and let her do landings. No stalls in the
    practice area, no take-offs, just downwind through landing. Took a
    break in the middle for a Coke. She got the idea of approach speed
    and then holding the wheel full back in flare in two sessions that
    were probably a bit more than an hour in the airplane total. I flew
    most of the first approaches and never fully took my hands off, but
    she was doing it at the end. The hardest part was biting my tongue
    and not over-coaching. She still doesn't want to take the controls
    normally, but the best part is that she's MUCH more comfortable in
    the airplane now.
    Bob
    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, Paul Werbin <paulwerbin@...>
    wrote:
    >
    > During a recent discussion with a bunch of pilots the
    > topic of the rare non-pilot emergency landing came up.
    > I am thinking that given the nature of bad sierra
    > landings (nose wheel pogo etc.)and the relatively
    > benign effects of gear up landings I will recommend
    > that in the case of pilot incapacitation and emerg.
    > landing by the untrained passenger that the gear be
    > left up. Anybody else ever think about this stuff?
    > Paul
    >
    > __________________________________________________
    > Do You Yahoo!?
    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    > http://mail.yahoo.com
    >






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  4. #4

    emergency sierra landing thought

    Paul and all,

    Having made both, I think I would want my non
    pinch-hitting wife, who knows nothing about airspeeds
    etc., to land my Sierra gear up. My reasons are; they
    don't bounce, they stop quick, and they stay together.
    I would like to hear other opinions on this subject,
    as I certainly do not know it all.

    Dan Kirby
    Sierra N9299S



    --- rjf <rjf@p339.com> wrote:

    > Paul,
    >
    > Until now, I really haven't given any serious
    > consideration to a non-
    > pilot passenger trying to land my Sierra. I think
    > the situation is
    > extremely grave with power or without. Let's assume
    > that the passenger
    > we're talking about is with you regularly when you
    > fly, and somewhat
    > interested. With power, they might have a chance if
    > they have a clue
    > about correct power settings, or are smart enough to
    > figure it out on
    > the fly (no pun intended).
    >
    > Without power, the sink rate (gear down is pretty
    > substantial unless you
    > deploy the flaps and get the nose high. You can
    > reduce the sink rake in
    > a sierra to about 600-700 fpm in this configuration.
    > I don't know if
    > you could land in that configuration because you
    > might strike the tail.
    > In a real emergency, if your non-pilot friend could
    > get the plane in
    > this configuration, it would be in a survivable
    > decent rate (+) and a
    > low forward speed (+). If the tail were to strike
    > first, the main gear
    > should touch next followed by the nose. The key in
    > my mind would be
    > making sure that any bounce was not met with forward
    > pressure on the
    > yoke. Even still, I think you could flip the plane.
    >
    > Like I said, I've never tried it myself, and I sure
    > as hell never let
    > someone else. I'd advise anyone thinking about
    > experimenting with this
    > to do it at altitude and make your own decision as
    > to whether or not
    > you'd consider doing it near a runway. I don't plan
    > to myself. I'm not
    > that curious.
    >
    > I also think the best glide speed in this airplane
    > is pretty high, and
    > I'm on the edge of the fence in wondering if Beech
    > could have done a
    > better job procedurizing the emergency approach with
    > best glide speeds
    > defined for gear up and gear down. I, as I'm sure
    > many of you, have done
    > a substantial amount of experimentation trying to
    > find the best
    > configuration in an emergency. The Sierra's gear
    > takes awhile to go
    > down and lock. My decision to put the gear down or
    > not is made about 20
    > seconds prior to landing. After that point, it's
    > questionable whether
    > or not it will be down and locked. Prior to that,
    > you lose lots of
    > glide distance. Some people I imagine would rather
    > get the gear down
    > earlier so they can concentrate on other
    > things...good flair, tanks off,
    > electric off...
    >
    > Like I said at the outset of this long winded (again
    > no pun intended)
    > message, I think it's an extremely grave situation.
    > I agree that pinch
    > hitter training for someone that flies with you
    > regularly is in order if
    > you're really concerned.
    >
    >
    > regards,
    >
    > RJF
    >
    >
    > On Sun, 2006-02-05 at 05:31 -0800, Paul Werbin
    > wrote:
    > > During a recent discussion with a bunch of pilots
    > the
    > > topic of the rare non-pilot emergency landing came
    > up.
    > > I am thinking that given the nature of bad sierra
    > > landings (nose wheel pogo etc.)and the relatively
    > > benign effects of gear up landings I will
    > recommend
    > > that in the case of pilot incapacitation and
    > emerg.
    > > landing by the untrained passenger that the gear
    > be
    > > left up. Anybody else ever think about this stuff?
    > > Paul
    > >
    > > __________________________________________________
    > > Do You Yahoo!?
    > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
    > protection around
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    > >
    > >
    > > Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club
    > for the Musketeer series!
    > >
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    > >
    > >
    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    > Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club
    > for the Musketeer series!
    >
    > www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
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    >
    >
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    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >


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  5. #5

    emergency sierra landing thought

    My 2 cents:

    A bounce in this situation isn't that bad. A bounce would dissipate
    some of the energy.

    The problem with a sudden stoppage that may result in a belly up is
    that force is transferred to you, your body, and your organs. The
    harder and faster you hit, the more your chances for survival
    decrease exponentially.

    Having the gear down and hopeful some flaps down as well (pinch
    hitter comes into play here) would slow the a/c down enough that even
    if there wasn't enough or any flare, the porpoising would only occur
    as long as there was sufficient speed for flight. At some point, the
    nose hear would break, prop would hit, and lift is no longer an
    issue. The thing is that with the gear down, the a/c can slow down
    much more and impact is dissipated much more than a sudden stoppage
    with belly up.

    A belly up my be practical for an experienced pilot landing on a soft
    surface or water.

    Again, my opinion only.

    Ray

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, Ann and Dan Kirby <abk100@...>
    wrote:
    >
    > Paul and all,
    >
    > Having made both, I think I would want my non
    > pinch-hitting wife, who knows nothing about airspeeds
    > etc., to land my Sierra gear up. My reasons are; they
    > don't bounce, they stop quick, and they stay together.
    > I would like to hear other opinions on this subject,
    > as I certainly do not know it all.
    >
    > Dan Kirby
    > Sierra N9299S
    >
    >
    >
    > --- rjf <rjf@...> wrote:
    >
    > > Paul,
    > >
    > > Until now, I really haven't given any serious
    > > consideration to a non-
    > > pilot passenger trying to land my Sierra. I think
    > > the situation is
    > > extremely grave with power or without. Let's assume
    > > that the passenger
    > > we're talking about is with you regularly when you
    > > fly, and somewhat
    > > interested. With power, they might have a chance if
    > > they have a clue
    > > about correct power settings, or are smart enough to
    > > figure it out on
    > > the fly (no pun intended).
    > >
    > > Without power, the sink rate (gear down is pretty
    > > substantial unless you
    > > deploy the flaps and get the nose high. You can
    > > reduce the sink rake in
    > > a sierra to about 600-700 fpm in this configuration.
    > > I don't know if
    > > you could land in that configuration because you
    > > might strike the tail.
    > > In a real emergency, if your non-pilot friend could
    > > get the plane in
    > > this configuration, it would be in a survivable
    > > decent rate (+) and a
    > > low forward speed (+). If the tail were to strike
    > > first, the main gear
    > > should touch next followed by the nose. The key in
    > > my mind would be
    > > making sure that any bounce was not met with forward
    > > pressure on the
    > > yoke. Even still, I think you could flip the plane.
    > >
    > > Like I said, I've never tried it myself, and I sure
    > > as hell never let
    > > someone else. I'd advise anyone thinking about
    > > experimenting with this
    > > to do it at altitude and make your own decision as
    > > to whether or not
    > > you'd consider doing it near a runway. I don't plan
    > > to myself. I'm not
    > > that curious.
    > >
    > > I also think the best glide speed in this airplane
    > > is pretty high, and
    > > I'm on the edge of the fence in wondering if Beech
    > > could have done a
    > > better job procedurizing the emergency approach with
    > > best glide speeds
    > > defined for gear up and gear down. I, as I'm sure
    > > many of you, have done
    > > a substantial amount of experimentation trying to
    > > find the best
    > > configuration in an emergency. The Sierra's gear
    > > takes awhile to go
    > > down and lock. My decision to put the gear down or
    > > not is made about 20
    > > seconds prior to landing. After that point, it's
    > > questionable whether
    > > or not it will be down and locked. Prior to that,
    > > you lose lots of
    > > glide distance. Some people I imagine would rather
    > > get the gear down
    > > earlier so they can concentrate on other
    > > things...good flair, tanks off,
    > > electric off...
    > >
    > > Like I said at the outset of this long winded (again
    > > no pun intended)
    > > message, I think it's an extremely grave situation.
    > > I agree that pinch
    > > hitter training for someone that flies with you
    > > regularly is in order if
    > > you're really concerned.
    > >
    > >
    > > regards,
    > >
    > > RJF
    > >
    > >
    > > On Sun, 2006-02-05 at 05:31 -0800, Paul Werbin
    > > wrote:
    > > > During a recent discussion with a bunch of pilots
    > > the
    > > > topic of the rare non-pilot emergency landing came
    > > up.
    > > > I am thinking that given the nature of bad sierra
    > > > landings (nose wheel pogo etc.)and the relatively
    > > > benign effects of gear up landings I will
    > > recommend
    > > > that in the case of pilot incapacitation and
    > > emerg.
    > > > landing by the untrained passenger that the gear
    > > be
    > > > left up. Anybody else ever think about this stuff?
    > > > Paul
    > > >
    > > > __________________________________________________
    > > > Do You Yahoo!?
    > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
    > > protection around
    > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
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    > > >
    > > > Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club
    > > for the Musketeer series!
    > > >
    > > > www.beechaeroclub.org
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club
    > > for the Musketeer series!
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    > > www.beechaeroclub.org
    > >
    > >
    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
    > >
    > >
    > > musketeermail-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    > __________________________________________________
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  6. #6
    Orbiting Earth Orbiting Earth corcoran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Braintree and Cape Cod, Massachusetts,
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    1,102

    emergency sierra landing thought

    Paul,

    I keep the gear down on my Sundowner all the time - just in case.

    Tom Corcoran


    Subject: [musketeermail] emergency sierra landing thought


    During a recent discussion with a bunch of pilots the
    topic of the rare non-pilot emergency landing came up.
    I am thinking that given the nature of bad sierra
    landings (nose wheel pogo etc.)and the relatively
    benign effects of gear up landings I will recommend
    that in the case of pilot incapacitation and emerg.
    landing by the untrained passenger that the gear be
    left up. Anybody else ever think about this stuff?
    Paul

    __________________________________________________
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    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

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  7. #7

    emergency sierra landing thought

    Hi again,

    The FAA guy that investigated my intentional gear up
    said I did all the right things. A few weeks later a
    pilot friend of mine sent me a copy of an article from
    aviation safety. When I find it, I'll post it on BAC.

    Dan Kirby
    Sierra N9299S

    --- Scott Aviation <ScottAviation@EarthLink.Net>
    wrote:

    > Interesting topic. Not to totally ignore the
    > problems excessive air speed, hard landings, and
    > pilot induced oscillation, I think any landing by a
    > non-pilot is going to be a bad landing whether the
    > gear is up or down. I vote for some training of
    > frequent flyers and letting the others know that the
    > chances of a pilot being incapacitated in flight are
    > about like winning the lottery - they are very
    > small.
    > -Scotty, B23 sn 1234
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: Ray
    > To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    > Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 5:35 PM
    > Subject: [musketeermail] Re: emergency sierra
    > landing thought
    >
    >
    > My 2 cents:
    >
    > A bounce in this situation isn't that bad. A
    > bounce would dissipate
    > some of the energy.
    >
    > The problem with a sudden stoppage that may result
    > in a belly up is
    > that force is transferred to you, your body, and
    > your organs. The
    > harder and faster you hit, the more your chances
    > for survival
    > decrease exponentially.
    >
    > Having the gear down and hopeful some flaps down
    > as well (pinch
    > hitter comes into play here) would slow the a/c
    > down enough that even
    > if there wasn't enough or any flare, the
    > porpoising would only occur
    > as long as there was sufficient speed for flight.
    > At some point, the
    > nose hear would break, prop would hit, and lift is
    > no longer an
    > issue. The thing is that with the gear down, the
    > a/c can slow down
    > much more and impact is dissipated much more than
    > a sudden stoppage
    > with belly up.
    >
    > A belly up my be practical for an experienced
    > pilot landing on a soft
    > surface or water.
    >
    > Again, my opinion only.
    >
    > Ray
    >
    > --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, Ann and Dan
    > Kirby <abk100@...>
    > wrote:
    > >
    > > Paul and all,
    > >
    > > Having made both, I think I would want my non
    > > pinch-hitting wife, who knows nothing about
    > airspeeds
    > > etc., to land my Sierra gear up. My reasons are;
    > they
    > > don't bounce, they stop quick, and they stay
    > together.
    > > I would like to hear other opinions on this
    > subject,
    > > as I certainly do not know it all.
    > >
    > > Dan Kirby
    > > Sierra N9299S
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --- rjf <rjf@...> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Paul,
    > > >
    > > > Until now, I really haven't given any serious
    > > > consideration to a non-
    > > > pilot passenger trying to land my Sierra. I
    > think
    > > > the situation is
    > > > extremely grave with power or without. Let's
    > assume
    > > > that the passenger
    > > > we're talking about is with you regularly when
    > you
    > > > fly, and somewhat
    > > > interested. With power, they might have a
    > chance if
    > > > they have a clue
    > > > about correct power settings, or are smart
    > enough to
    > > > figure it out on
    > > > the fly (no pun intended).
    > > >
    > > > Without power, the sink rate (gear down is
    > pretty
    > > > substantial unless you
    > > > deploy the flaps and get the nose high. You
    > can
    > > > reduce the sink rake in
    > > > a sierra to about 600-700 fpm in this
    > configuration.
    > > > I don't know if
    > > > you could land in that configuration because
    > you
    > > > might strike the tail.
    > > > In a real emergency, if your non-pilot friend
    > could
    > > > get the plane in
    > > > this configuration, it would be in a
    > survivable
    > > > decent rate (+) and a
    > > > low forward speed (+). If the tail were to
    > strike
    > > > first, the main gear
    > > > should touch next followed by the nose. The
    > key in
    > > > my mind would be
    > > > making sure that any bounce was not met with
    > forward
    > > > pressure on the
    > > > yoke. Even still, I think you could flip the
    > plane.
    > > >
    > > > Like I said, I've never tried it myself, and I
    > sure
    > > > as hell never let
    > > > someone else. I'd advise anyone thinking
    > about
    > > > experimenting with this
    > > > to do it at altitude and make your own
    > decision as
    > > > to whether or not
    > > > you'd consider doing it near a runway. I
    > don't plan
    > > > to myself. I'm not
    > > > that curious.
    > > >
    > > > I also think the best glide speed in this
    > airplane
    > > > is pretty high, and
    > > > I'm on the edge of the fence in wondering if
    > Beech
    > > > could have done a
    > > > better job procedurizing the emergency
    > approach with
    > > > best glide speeds
    > > > defined for gear up and gear down. I, as I'm
    > sure
    > > > many of you, have done
    > > > a substantial amount of experimentation trying
    > to
    > > > find the best
    > > > configuration in an emergency. The Sierra's
    > gear
    > > > takes awhile to go
    > > > down and lock. My decision to put the gear
    > down or
    > > > not is made about 20
    > > > seconds prior to landing. After that point,
    > it's
    > > > questionable whether
    > > > or not it will be down and locked. Prior to
    > that,
    > > > you lose lots of
    > > > glide distance. Some people I imagine would
    > rather
    > > > get the gear down
    > > > earlier so they can concentrate on other
    > > > things...good flair, tanks off,
    > > > electric off...
    > > >
    > > > Like I said at the outset of this long winded
    > (again
    > > > no pun intended)
    > > > message, I think it's an extremely grave
    > situation.
    > > > I agree that pinch
    > > > hitter training for someone that flies with
    > you
    > > > regularly is in order if
    > > > you're really concerned.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > regards,
    > > >
    > > > RJF
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > On Sun, 2006-02-05 at 05:31 -0800, Paul Werbin
    > > > wrote:
    > > > > During a recent discussion with a bunch of
    > pilots
    > > > the
    >
    === message truncated ===


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