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Thread: How difficult

  1. #1

    How difficult

    Hi everyone, I've just discovered this group as I was trying to find
    out a little more about the flight characteristics of the mighty mouse.

    I'm a 35 hour Student Pilot, having flown 152 and 172's only. I'm
    about to purchase a nice Muskateer, and I wanted to find out a little
    more about the flying characteristics of the aircraft.

    I've read some stories about painfull landings after a high flare, but
    than I've also read about the great landings this plane is capable of.
    Would you experienced pilots be willing to share your views on this
    nice looking plane ?

    kind regards in advance,

    Jai









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  2. #2

    How difficult

    Jai, landing the Musketeer is not hard at all but it does take a bit different technique than the 152 or 172. The Musketeer was designed to teach a student how to land a Bonanza and the landing airspeeds are similar. My technique is to fly most of the pattern at 75 to 80 knots. On downwind I stabilize at about 85 knots and when abeam the approach end of the runway I pull the power back to about 1/2 throttle and set the first notch of flaps. The airspeed automatically drops to about 75 knots and I trim for glide. On base I add a second notch of flaps and adjust power to get the rate of descent that I want. On short final I pull the third notch if I am too high, or not if I am just right or low. Over the end of the runway and about 40 or 50 feet high I start worrying about getting the nose high and killing any drift with sideslip. You should be about 65 knots at this point. I keep pulling the nose us to bleed off airspeed and pull the throttle to allow
    some sink. You should touch at about 55 knots. Speed is important and keeping the nose a bit higher than the mains is very important. Be aware, these figures are knots from the inner circle on the ASI, not mph on the outer circle. If you use mph to fly you will need to adjust. I find that it is easy to land if I pay more attention to angle of attack and sink rate than other factors.

    Willis, A23

    Jai Wurfbain <jwurfbain@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: Hi everyone, I've just discovered this group as I was trying to find
    out a little more about the flight characteristics of the mighty mouse.

    I'm a 35 hour Student Pilot, having flown 152 and 172's only. I'm
    about to purchase a nice Muskateer, and I wanted to find out a little
    more about the flying characteristics of the aircraft.

    I've read some stories about painfull landings after a high flare, but
    than I've also read about the great landings this plane is capable of.
    Would you experienced pilots be willing to share your views on this
    nice looking plane ?

    kind regards in advance,

    Jai










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    www.beechaeroclub.org


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  3. #3

    How difficult

    Try to land a Cessna at 55 knots and a 13,000 foot SAC runway will not be long enough. If you hit easy the landing gear will absorb the sink and keep you on the ground. If you have new doughnuts in the gear, it will absorb more than if you have old hard ones like I do. If you hit too hard it will launch you back into the air and if you only go back up a couple of feet and hold back pressure you will come down again and stay down. If you drive it into the runway and hit the nose gear first it will bounce up and increase your attitude so that you go way up and you need to add power to kill the oscillation. It is not so different than a Cessna, but most Musketeers are nose heavy and getting the proper attitude requires a bit more attention. They are all airplanes! If you can get with an instructor with Musketeer experience it is better but I learned it myself as a 70 hour private pilot without one. My wife flew all of her private in the Musketeer but I
    had to tell her instructor how to land then let him practice in my airplane until he believed me. We all managed to learn without destroying anything but some tires.
    Willis

    "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com> wrote: But Willis, that sounds almost exactly like the instructions for
    landing a 152 or 172. What is it that is distinctly different? Will
    the Musketeer bounce, or does it absorb landing shocks and keep you
    on the ground?

    Dave

    At 08:48 AM 6/7/2006, you wrote:
    >Jai, landing the Musketeer is not hard at all but it does take a
    >bit different technique than the 152 or 172. The Musketeer
    >was designed to teach a student how to land a Bonanza and the
    >landing airspeeds are similar. My technique is to fly most of the
    >pattern at 75 to 80 knots. On downwind I stabilize at about 85
    >knots and when abeam the approach end of the runway I pull the
    >power back to about 1/2 throttle and set the first notch of
    >flaps. The airspeed automatically drops to about 75 knots and I
    >trim for glide. On base I add a second notch of flaps and adjust
    >power to get the rate of descent that I want. On short final I
    >pull the third notch if I am too high, or not if I am just right or
    >low. Over the end of the runway and about 40 or 50 feet high I
    >start worrying about getting the nose high and killing any drift
    >with sideslip. You should be about 65 knots at this point. I keep
    >pulling the nose us to bleed off airspeed and pull the throttle to allow
    > some sink. You should touch at about 55 knots. Speed is
    > important and keeping the nose a bit higher than the mains is very
    > important. Be aware, these figures are knots from the inner
    > circle on the ASI, not mph on the outer circle. If you use mph to
    > fly you will need to adjust. I find that it is easy to land if I
    > pay more attention to angle of attack and sink rate than other factors.
    >
    > Willis, A23
    >
    >Jai Wurfbain wrote: Hi everyone, I've just
    >discovered this group as I was trying to find
    >out a little more about the flight characteristics of the mighty mouse.
    >
    >I'm a 35 hour Student Pilot, having flown 152 and 172's only. I'm
    >about to purchase a nice Muskateer, and I wanted to find out a little
    >more about the flying characteristics of the aircraft.
    >
    >I've read some stories about painfull landings after a high flare, but
    >than I've also read about the great landings this plane is capable of.
    >Would you experienced pilots be willing to share your views on this
    >nice looking plane ?
    >
    >kind regards in advance,
    >
    >Jai
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!
    >
    >www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    >Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!
    >
    >www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    >Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    >





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  4. #4

    How difficult

    What's distinctly different is this: Like all aircraft, the Mouse
    has a "sweet spot" airspeed range in the glide - too slow, and you
    sink like a rock, too fast and you float forever in the flare.
    Well, in the Mouse, in all models that I'm acquainted with, the
    sweet spot is narrower, about 3 knots, and more pronounced - you
    sink faster, float longer. Hence the Mouse series demands excellent
    airspeed control in the approach, particularly on short final. But
    if you've got that, it's no problem, or at least only a problem for
    pilots whose Brand C or Brand P training has habituated them to
    clumsiness.

    I heard the same tales Jai did before I bought my Sierra, and was
    pleasantly astonished to find myself making squeakers almost right
    from the start. I fly final at 82 mph, not 81 and not 83, keep a
    smidgen of power in almost to touchdown, and I keep my effin' tail
    down in the flare - that's all it seems to take.

    There's a rich literature in the MM archives on landing technique,
    extending back some years so it's regrettably tedious to search.
    Sure hope the highlights made it over to the BAC FAQ.

    Craig MacCallum
    Sierra N525SB
    Montclair NJ

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Morris \"BigD\""
    <BigD@...> wrote:
    >
    > But Willis, that sounds almost exactly like the instructions for
    > landing a 152 or 172. What is it that is distinctly different?
    Will
    > the Musketeer bounce, or does it absorb landing shocks and keep
    you
    > on the ground?
    >
    > Dave
    >
    > At 08:48 AM 6/7/2006, you wrote:
    > >Jai, landing the Musketeer is not hard at all but it does take a
    > >bit different technique than the 152 or 172. The Musketeer
    > >was designed to teach a student how to land a Bonanza and the
    > >landing airspeeds are similar. My technique is to fly most of
    the
    > >pattern at 75 to 80 knots. On downwind I stabilize at about 85
    > >knots and when abeam the approach end of the runway I pull the
    > >power back to about 1/2 throttle and set the first notch of
    > >flaps. The airspeed automatically drops to about 75 knots and I
    > >trim for glide. On base I add a second notch of flaps and
    adjust
    > >power to get the rate of descent that I want. On short final I
    > >pull the third notch if I am too high, or not if I am just right
    or
    > >low. Over the end of the runway and about 40 or 50 feet high I
    > >start worrying about getting the nose high and killing any drift
    > >with sideslip. You should be about 65 knots at this point. I
    keep
    > >pulling the nose us to bleed off airspeed and pull the throttle
    to allow
    > > some sink. You should touch at about 55 knots. Speed is
    > > important and keeping the nose a bit higher than the mains is
    very
    > > important. Be aware, these figures are knots from the inner
    > > circle on the ASI, not mph on the outer circle. If you use mph
    to
    > > fly you will need to adjust. I find that it is easy to land if
    I
    > > pay more attention to angle of attack and sink rate than other
    factors.
    > >
    > > Willis, A23
    > >
    > >Jai Wurfbain <jwurfbain@...> wrote: Hi everyone, I've just
    > >discovered this group as I was trying to find
    > >out a little more about the flight characteristics of the mighty
    mouse.
    > >
    > >I'm a 35 hour Student Pilot, having flown 152 and 172's only. I'm
    > >about to purchase a nice Muskateer, and I wanted to find out a
    little
    > >more about the flying characteristics of the aircraft.
    > >
    > >I've read some stories about painfull landings after a high
    flare, but
    > >than I've also read about the great landings this plane is
    capable of.
    > >Would you experienced pilots be willing to share your views on
    this
    > >nice looking plane ?
    > >
    > >kind regards in advance,
    > >
    > >Jai
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the
    Musketeer series!
    > >
    > >www.beechaeroclub.org
    > >
    > >
    > >Yahoo! Groups Links
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the
    Musketeer series!
    > >
    > >www.beechaeroclub.org
    > >
    > >
    > >Yahoo! Groups Links
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >







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  5. #5

    How difficult

    The real secret here is buried in this reply from
    Willis...

    "but most Musketeers are nose heavy and getting the
    proper attitude requires a bit more attention"

    The whole first year I didn't believe that a musketeer
    would float on final. Most of my landings were ok,
    some were really good and some weren't worthy of
    student pilots. But after I had it for a while I
    began to realize that everywhere I arrived I arrived
    there Nose Heavy. I started trying to load smarter,
    and the whole landing began changing. Add to it that
    most people are taught to land too fast in the first
    place, and you have the recipe for bad landings.
    First, I finally convinced my self that if I wanted
    to, I could fly a whole landing at 70 MPH, then I got
    where I could do it. Now it's no problem to maintain
    75 - 70 where before I was using 85 - 75 and anywhere
    inbetween. Second, considering whether you are loaded
    fore or aft should be part of your lading procedure
    just like setting your speed and your flaps. Because
    your loading condition will change what you are
    watching for the plane to do when it is 'rubber meets
    the road' time.

    JB



    --- WILLIS COOKE <wrcooke@flash.net> wrote:

    > Try to land a Cessna at 55 knots and a 13,000 foot
    > SAC runway will not be long enough. If you hit
    > easy the landing gear will absorb the sink and keep
    > you on the ground. If you have new doughnuts in the
    > gear, it will absorb more than if you have old hard
    > ones like I do. If you hit too hard it will launch
    > you back into the air and if you only go back up a
    > couple of feet and hold back pressure you will come
    > down again and stay down. If you drive it into the
    > runway and hit the nose gear first it will bounce
    > up and increase your attitude so that you go way up
    > and you need to add power to kill the oscillation.
    > It is not so different than a Cessna, but most
    > Musketeers are nose heavy and getting the proper
    > attitude requires a bit more attention. They are
    > all airplanes! If you can get with an instructor
    > with Musketeer experience it is better but I learned
    > it myself as a 70 hour private pilot without one.
    > My wife flew all of her private in the Musketeer
    > but I
    > had to tell her instructor how to land then let
    > him practice in my airplane until he believed me.
    > We all managed to learn without destroying anything
    > but some tires.
    > Willis
    >
    > "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com> wrote:
    > But Willis, that sounds almost exactly like the
    > instructions for
    > landing a 152 or 172. What is it that is distinctly
    > different? Will
    > the Musketeer bounce, or does it absorb landing
    > shocks and keep you
    > on the ground?
    >
    > Dave
    >
    > At 08:48 AM 6/7/2006, you wrote:
    > >Jai, landing the Musketeer is not hard at all but
    > it does take a
    > >bit different technique than the 152 or 172. The
    > Musketeer
    > >was designed to teach a student how to land a
    > Bonanza and the
    > >landing airspeeds are similar. My technique is to
    > fly most of the
    > >pattern at 75 to 80 knots. On downwind I
    > stabilize at about 85
    > >knots and when abeam the approach end of the
    > runway I pull the
    > >power back to about 1/2 throttle and set the first
    > notch of
    > >flaps. The airspeed automatically drops to about
    > 75 knots and I
    > >trim for glide. On base I add a second notch of
    > flaps and adjust
    > >power to get the rate of descent that I want. On
    > short final I
    > >pull the third notch if I am too high, or not if I
    > am just right or
    > >low. Over the end of the runway and about 40 or
    > 50 feet high I
    > >start worrying about getting the nose high and
    > killing any drift
    > >with sideslip. You should be about 65 knots at
    > this point. I keep
    > >pulling the nose us to bleed off airspeed and pull
    > the throttle to allow
    > > some sink. You should touch at about 55 knots.
    > Speed is
    > > important and keeping the nose a bit higher than
    > the mains is very
    > > important. Be aware, these figures are knots
    > from the inner
    > > circle on the ASI, not mph on the outer circle.
    > If you use mph to
    > > fly you will need to adjust. I find that it is
    > easy to land if I
    > > pay more attention to angle of attack and sink
    > rate than other factors.
    > >
    > > Willis, A23
    > >
    > >Jai Wurfbain wrote: Hi everyone, I've just
    > >discovered this group as I was trying to find
    > >out a little more about the flight characteristics
    > of the mighty mouse.
    > >
    > >I'm a 35 hour Student Pilot, having flown 152 and
    > 172's only. I'm
    > >about to purchase a nice Muskateer, and I wanted to
    > find out a little
    > >more about the flying characteristics of the
    > aircraft.
    > >
    > >I've read some stories about painfull landings
    > after a high flare, but
    > >than I've also read about the great landings this
    > plane is capable of.
    > >Would you experienced pilots be willing to share
    > your views on this
    > >nice looking plane ?
    > >
    > >kind regards in advance,
    > >
    > >Jai
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club
    > for the Musketeer series!
    > >
    > >www.beechaeroclub.org
    > >
    > >
    > >Yahoo! Groups Links
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >[Non-text portions of this message have been
    > removed]
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club
    > for the Musketeer series!
    > >
    > >www.beechaeroclub.org
    > >
    > >
    > >Yahoo! Groups Links
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club
    > for the Musketeer series!
    >
    > www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
    > removed]
    >
    >


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  6. #6

    How difficult

    I agree with Craig. 82mph on final does it on my
    Sierra, no matter what I do in the pattern. Keeping
    the nose up is a must, and should be habit no matter
    what the loading or CG is. With reasonable care, maybe
    these planes will fly forever.

    Dan Kirby
    Sierra N9299S

    --- craigmaccallum <cmacc@losinc.com> wrote:

    > What's distinctly different is this: Like all
    > aircraft, the Mouse
    > has a "sweet spot" airspeed range in the glide - too
    > slow, and you
    > sink like a rock, too fast and you float forever in
    > the flare.
    > Well, in the Mouse, in all models that I'm
    > acquainted with, the
    > sweet spot is narrower, about 3 knots, and more
    > pronounced - you
    > sink faster, float longer. Hence the Mouse series
    > demands excellent
    > airspeed control in the approach, particularly on
    > short final. But
    > if you've got that, it's no problem, or at least
    > only a problem for
    > pilots whose Brand C or Brand P training has
    > habituated them to
    > clumsiness.
    >
    > I heard the same tales Jai did before I bought my
    > Sierra, and was
    > pleasantly astonished to find myself making
    > squeakers almost right
    > from the start. I fly final at 82 mph, not 81 and
    > not 83, keep a
    > smidgen of power in almost to touchdown, and I keep
    > my effin' tail
    > down in the flare - that's all it seems to take.
    >
    > There's a rich literature in the MM archives on
    > landing technique,
    > extending back some years so it's regrettably
    > tedious to search.
    > Sure hope the highlights made it over to the BAC
    > FAQ.
    >
    > Craig MacCallum
    > Sierra N525SB
    > Montclair NJ
    >
    > --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Morris
    > \"BigD\""
    > <BigD@...> wrote:
    > >
    > > But Willis, that sounds almost exactly like the
    > instructions for
    > > landing a 152 or 172. What is it that is
    > distinctly different?
    > Will
    > > the Musketeer bounce, or does it absorb landing
    > shocks and keep
    > you
    > > on the ground?
    > >
    > > Dave
    > >
    > > At 08:48 AM 6/7/2006, you wrote:
    > > >Jai, landing the Musketeer is not hard at all but
    > it does take a
    > > >bit different technique than the 152 or 172.
    > The Musketeer
    > > >was designed to teach a student how to land a
    > Bonanza and the
    > > >landing airspeeds are similar. My technique is
    > to fly most of
    > the
    > > >pattern at 75 to 80 knots. On downwind I
    > stabilize at about 85
    > > >knots and when abeam the approach end of the
    > runway I pull the
    > > >power back to about 1/2 throttle and set the
    > first notch of
    > > >flaps. The airspeed automatically drops to
    > about 75 knots and I
    > > >trim for glide. On base I add a second notch of
    > flaps and
    > adjust
    > > >power to get the rate of descent that I want.
    > On short final I
    > > >pull the third notch if I am too high, or not if
    > I am just right
    > or
    > > >low. Over the end of the runway and about 40 or
    > 50 feet high I
    > > >start worrying about getting the nose high and
    > killing any drift
    > > >with sideslip. You should be about 65 knots at
    > this point. I
    > keep
    > > >pulling the nose us to bleed off airspeed and
    > pull the throttle
    > to allow
    > > > some sink. You should touch at about 55
    > knots. Speed is
    > > > important and keeping the nose a bit higher
    > than the mains is
    > very
    > > > important. Be aware, these figures are knots
    > from the inner
    > > > circle on the ASI, not mph on the outer circle.
    > If you use mph
    > to
    > > > fly you will need to adjust. I find that it is
    > easy to land if
    > I
    > > > pay more attention to angle of attack and sink
    > rate than other
    > factors.
    > > >
    > > > Willis, A23
    > > >
    > > >Jai Wurfbain <jwurfbain@...> wrote: Hi everyone,
    > I've just
    > > >discovered this group as I was trying to find
    > > >out a little more about the flight
    > characteristics of the mighty
    > mouse.
    > > >
    > > >I'm a 35 hour Student Pilot, having flown 152 and
    > 172's only. I'm
    > > >about to purchase a nice Muskateer, and I wanted
    > to find out a
    > little
    > > >more about the flying characteristics of the
    > aircraft.
    > > >
    > > >I've read some stories about painfull landings
    > after a high
    > flare, but
    > > >than I've also read about the great landings this
    > plane is
    > capable of.
    > > >Would you experienced pilots be willing to share
    > your views on
    > this
    > > >nice looking plane ?
    > > >
    > > >kind regards in advance,
    > > >
    > > >Jai
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type
    > Club for the
    > Musketeer series!
    > > >
    > > >www.beechaeroclub.org
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been
    > removed]
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type
    > Club for the
    > Musketeer series!
    > > >
    > > >www.beechaeroclub.org
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
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  7. #7

    How difficult

    Hello Jia! You've no doubt read the many detailed steps that other
    members use during landing. Let me simplify things for you:

    1. Check the operating handbook for the recommended final approach
    speed, just as you would with any aircraft you are unfamiliar with.
    (On my particular plane, that is 81 MPH.)
    2. Do whatever you need to do to get to that speed on final
    approach. Control airspeed with elevator pitch and rate of descent
    with throttle. I highly recommend full flaps regardless of wind
    conditions. You REALLY want to maintain that airspeed as closely as
    possible.
    3. Just before contact with the earth, close the thottle and flair.
    DON'T LET THE NOSEWHEEL TOUCH BEFORE THE MAINS.
    4. If the nosewheel DOES touch firmly before the mains, you will
    bounce. Don't try to rescue the landing. You can't. Just go around.

    That's all there is to it. Airspeed control, flair nose high, and go
    around if you bounce.

    The BE19/23/24 line handles landings really well in crosswinds and
    gusty conditions because the low wing creates a lot of ground
    effect. I find it to be very easy to make good landings compared to
    the float, bounce, float some more, bounce, bounce landings in a
    typical Cessna.

    Best regards,

    Steve Robertson, CFI SEL MEL
    N4723J 1967 A23-24 Musketeer Super III

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "Jai Wurfbain" <jwurfbain@...>
    wrote:
    >
    > Hi everyone, I've just discovered this group as I was trying to
    find
    > out a little more about the flight characteristics of the mighty
    mouse.
    >
    > I'm a 35 hour Student Pilot, having flown 152 and 172's only. I'm
    > about to purchase a nice Muskateer, and I wanted to find out a
    little
    > more about the flying characteristics of the aircraft.
    >
    > I've read some stories about painfull landings after a high flare,
    but
    > than I've also read about the great landings this plane is capable
    of.
    > Would you experienced pilots be willing to share your views on this
    > nice looking plane ?
    >
    > kind regards in advance,
    >
    > Jai
    >






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  8. #8

    How difficult

    Like most here I agree that Mice landings are fairly
    straightforward. I have a C23 Sundowner and never has an airplane
    rewarded me with as many greasers.

    The three factors mentioned are indeed what to watch for: precise
    airspeed (the numbers on mine are 80 knots no flaps on final, 75
    knots with 2 notches, and 68 knots with full flaps; that's like 80,
    75 and 68, not 82 or 77 or 72). Most of us were taught in brand "C"
    to carry a little extra speed especially in gusty conditions. I
    find that this hurts more than it helps. In the very worst cases
    maybe, but never EVER more than 5 knots and never EVER if you have a
    short runway.

    Second thing is keeping the nose up in the flare, and if you do
    bounce, don't try to shove it back on by pushing the nose down. A
    friend learned the hard way with her Sierra: broken nosewheel, prop
    strike and $35k in damage.

    Lastly is sight picture. You have to get the hang of the somewhat
    nose-down attitude of these suckers.

    For about a year I had both a Sundowner and a Skipper (just sold the
    Skipper). Ya know, I could never ever pull a good landing out of
    the Skipper, I just got so used to the Sundowner sight picture, and
    in spite of accurate speed control with the Skipper.

    One factor I have that helps beyond most of you guys though, is that
    my mouse is one of the rare aerobatic models. The stabilator has an
    extra fillet between the leading edge and the fuselage which
    increases the tail's surface area and perhaps helps control
    authority through the flare. So I guess in a way I "cheat" somewhat.

    Incidentally I sold the Skipper. Bought it to replace the Sundowner
    as a lower-cost Beech (I rarely needed the back seat) but the
    Sundownwer (high time) was taking a while to sell and the "boss"
    said to sell one airplane NOW. So I put the Skipper up on the
    market and it sold within 2 weeks of being listed. So now I'm back
    to the Sundowner only, and I may ease expenses by selling a
    partnership in it to a good buddy.

    Mike
    C-GTLM





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  9. #9

    How difficult

    What's a SAC runway?

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: WILLIS COOKE
    To: Dave Morris BigD ; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 10:10 AM
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] How difficult


    Try to land a Cessna at 55 knots and a 13,000 foot SAC runway will not be long enough. If you hit easy the landing gear will absorb the sink and keep you on the ground. If you have new doughnuts in the gear, it will absorb more than if you have old hard ones like I do. If you hit too hard it will launch you back into the air and if you only go back up a couple of feet and hold back pressure you will come down again and stay down. If you drive it into the runway and hit the nose gear first it will bounce up and increase your attitude so that you go way up and you need to add power to kill the oscillation. It is not so different than a Cessna, but most Musketeers are nose heavy and getting the proper attitude requires a bit more attention. They are all airplanes! If you can get with an instructor with Musketeer experience it is better but I learned it myself as a 70 hour private pilot without one. My wife flew all of her private in the Musketeer but I
    had to tell her instructor how to land then let him practice in my airplane until he believed me. We all managed to learn without destroying anything but some tires.
    Willis

    "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris.com> wrote: But Willis, that sounds almost exactly like the instructions for
    landing a 152 or 172. What is it that is distinctly different? Will
    the Musketeer bounce, or does it absorb landing shocks and keep you
    on the ground?

    Dave

    At 08:48 AM 6/7/2006, you wrote:
    >Jai, landing the Musketeer is not hard at all but it does take a
    >bit different technique than the 152 or 172. The Musketeer
    >was designed to teach a student how to land a Bonanza and the
    >landing airspeeds are similar. My technique is to fly most of the
    >pattern at 75 to 80 knots. On downwind I stabilize at about 85
    >knots and when abeam the approach end of the runway I pull the
    >power back to about 1/2 throttle and set the first notch of
    >flaps. The airspeed automatically drops to about 75 knots and I
    >trim for glide. On base I add a second notch of flaps and adjust
    >power to get the rate of descent that I want. On short final I
    >pull the third notch if I am too high, or not if I am just right or
    >low. Over the end of the runway and about 40 or 50 feet high I
    >start worrying about getting the nose high and killing any drift
    >with sideslip. You should be about 65 knots at this point. I keep
    >pulling the nose us to bleed off airspeed and pull the throttle to allow
    > some sink. You should touch at about 55 knots. Speed is
    > important and keeping the nose a bit higher than the mains is very
    > important. Be aware, these figures are knots from the inner
    > circle on the ASI, not mph on the outer circle. If you use mph to
    > fly you will need to adjust. I find that it is easy to land if I
    > pay more attention to angle of attack and sink rate than other factors.
    >
    > Willis, A23
    >
    >Jai Wurfbain wrote: Hi everyone, I've just
    >discovered this group as I was trying to find
    >out a little more about the flight characteristics of the mighty mouse.
    >
    >I'm a 35 hour Student Pilot, having flown 152 and 172's only. I'm
    >about to purchase a nice Muskateer, and I wanted to find out a little
    >more about the flying characteristics of the aircraft.
    >
    >I've read some stories about painfull landings after a high flare, but
    >than I've also read about the great landings this plane is capable of.
    >Would you experienced pilots be willing to share your views on this
    >nice looking plane ?
    >
    >kind regards in advance,
    >
    >Jai
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!
    >
    >www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    >Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!
    >
    >www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    >Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    >

    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org

    Yahoo! Groups Links

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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  10. #10

    How difficult

    Strategic Air Command. Runways were very long for B52 bombers.

    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Janet and Don Bateman
    Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 11:12 AM
    To: Dave Morris BigD; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com; WILLIS COOKE
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] How difficult

    What's a SAC runway?

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: WILLIS COOKE
    To: Dave Morris BigD ; musketeermail@
    <mailto:musketeermail%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 10:10 AM
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] How difficult

    Try to land a Cessna at 55 knots and a 13,000 foot SAC runway will not be
    long enough. If you hit easy the landing gear will absorb the sink and keep
    you on the ground. If you have new doughnuts in the gear, it will absorb
    more than if you have old hard ones like I do. If you hit too hard it will
    launch you back into the air and if you only go back up a couple of feet and
    hold back pressure you will come down again and stay down. If you drive it
    into the runway and hit the nose gear first it will bounce up and increase
    your attitude so that you go way up and you need to add power to kill the
    oscillation. It is not so different than a Cessna, but most Musketeers are
    nose heavy and getting the proper attitude requires a bit more attention.
    They are all airplanes! If you can get with an instructor with Musketeer
    experience it is better but I learned it myself as a 70 hour private pilot
    without one. My wife flew all of her private in the Musketeer but I
    had to tell her instructor how to land then let him practice in my airplane
    until he believed me. We all managed to learn without destroying anything
    but some tires.
    Willis

    "Dave Morris \"BigD\"" <BigD@DaveMorris. <mailto:BigD%40DaveMorris.com> com>
    wrote: But Willis, that sounds almost exactly like the instructions for
    landing a 152 or 172. What is it that is distinctly different? Will
    the Musketeer bounce, or does it absorb landing shocks and keep you
    on the ground?

    Dave

    At 08:48 AM 6/7/2006, you wrote:
    >Jai, landing the Musketeer is not hard at all but it does take a
    >bit different technique than the 152 or 172. The Musketeer
    >was designed to teach a student how to land a Bonanza and the
    >landing airspeeds are similar. My technique is to fly most of the
    >pattern at 75 to 80 knots. On downwind I stabilize at about 85
    >knots and when abeam the approach end of the runway I pull the
    >power back to about 1/2 throttle and set the first notch of
    >flaps. The airspeed automatically drops to about 75 knots and I
    >trim for glide. On base I add a second notch of flaps and adjust
    >power to get the rate of descent that I want. On short final I
    >pull the third notch if I am too high, or not if I am just right or
    >low. Over the end of the runway and about 40 or 50 feet high I
    >start worrying about getting the nose high and killing any drift
    >with sideslip. You should be about 65 knots at this point. I keep
    >pulling the nose us to bleed off airspeed and pull the throttle to allow
    > some sink. You should touch at about 55 knots. Speed is
    > important and keeping the nose a bit higher than the mains is very
    > important. Be aware, these figures are knots from the inner
    > circle on the ASI, not mph on the outer circle. If you use mph to
    > fly you will need to adjust. I find that it is easy to land if I
    > pay more attention to angle of attack and sink rate than other factors.
    >
    > Willis, A23
    >
    >Jai Wurfbain wrote: Hi everyone, I've just
    >discovered this group as I was trying to find
    >out a little more about the flight characteristics of the mighty mouse.
    >
    >I'm a 35 hour Student Pilot, having flown 152 and 172's only. I'm
    >about to purchase a nice Muskateer, and I wanted to find out a little
    >more about the flying characteristics of the aircraft.
    >
    >I've read some stories about painfull landings after a high flare, but
    >than I've also read about the great landings this plane is capable of.
    >Would you experienced pilots be willing to share your views on this
    >nice looking plane ?
    >
    >kind regards in advance,
    >
    >Jai
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer
    series!
    >
    >www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    >Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer
    series!
    >
    >www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    >Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    >
    >

    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org

    Yahoo! Groups Links

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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