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Thread: Val Radio/Nav equip

  1. #1

    Val Radio/Nav equip

    Greetings,

    I currently have a VAL LOC/GS unit installed in my sport. I also have
    1 KX-170B (w MAC 1700 conversion) Radio with NAV and a VOR ind without
    GS. Also have a Trimble 1000 VFR GPS. I am thinking it is time to
    start the instrument rating. Although, technically, I have everything
    I would need to get started, I would prefer to have some redundancy for
    Comm and NAV. I was at SNF this past week and was introduced to a new
    VAL unit that has a VOR/GS/LOC all in one. This unit would replace my
    current one, and take up the same hole. They also said they would give
    a credit for returning my old unit for a price of ~$1200 with the
    credit. This would give me a second VOR along with the GS and LOC. I
    also looked at their radio unit (VAL_Com_760 - $675.00) with thoughts
    of adding a second Comm. I would also need an audio panel which they
    offer at like $495.

    SO......

    Remove old VAL 420 LOC/GS and replace with VAL 422 VOR/LOC/GS ~$1200
    Very little wiring changes should be needed, splitter for VOR Ant?
    Add VAL_Com_760 ~ $675
    Add VAL AP100 ~ $495
    Total ~ $2370
    Plus installation = 40 ?? hrs @ $65 = $2600

    The idea here would be to add a second COMM and second VOR for what, on
    the surface, looks to be a reasonable cost (under $5K with
    installation), with minimal need for adding harnesses, huge panel
    changes, new antennas etc etc....

    Now The Questions....
    1. Does anyone have experience with the VAL com radios? How well do
    they work?
    2. Am I at all in the ball park for estimating $$ for this type of
    installation
    3. Would my existing antennas (Comm, VOR, mkr bcn) work with this
    setup. Am I missing something?

    Any thoughts, comments, suggestions welcome

    Thanks Much

    Gary H
    Sport 12K

  2. #2

    Val Radio/Nav equip

    Hi Steve,
    While I would certainly agree that for safety and actual IFR, that is a nice
    list, but it far exceeds what is required. The following is from the PTS
    for the instrument ticket.

    "The required radio equipment is that which is necessary for communications
    with ATC, and for the performance of two of the following nonprecision
    approaches: VOR, NDB, GPS, LOC, LDA, SDF, or RNAV and one precision
    approach: ILS, GLS, or MLS. GPS equipment must be instrument certified and
    contain the current database. "

    While a backup com is nice and a second VOR greatly simpifies position fixes
    (especially intersectiions), the minimum equipment requirement could be
    nothing more than a com and an ILS (fail the glideslope for the non
    precision approach. The com could even be a hand held. With this equipment
    there will be many approaches that you cannot conduct, but you can meet the
    requirements.

    John

    -----Original Message-----
    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of ke4oh
    Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:35 AM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [musketeermail] Re: Val Radio/Nav equip



    Hi Gary,

    I'm not familiar with the VAL units. I gather your current one has
    LOC and GS but not VOR. Every brand of VOR receiver or NAV/COM I've
    used will also receive LOC. So I'm surprised that the VAL you have
    doesn't do that.

    Look, here's what you need at a minimum to meet FAA requirements and
    for your safety: You need 2 VORs, 2 COMs, 1 GS, 1 3-light marker
    beacon receiver.

    So maybe you need to upgrade to the more-capable VAL VOR/LOC/GS. But
    you will still need a second COM. How 'bout a VAL or Icom? Also, you
    must have a 3-Light MB receiver. Is that included with the upgraded
    VAL? If not, you will need to add this. With 2 COMs, you will also
    need an audio panel of some sort. Many of these have the 3-LMB built
    into them.

    Any way you slice this, it won't be really cheap. Sorry.

    Best regards,

    Steve Robertson
    N4732J 1967 Super III

  3. #3

    Val Radio/Nav equip

    Steve,
    I don't know where you got your list of "required" radio equipment but
    according to FAR 91.205 the ONLY Radio equiptment required is :
    "Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate
    to the ground facilities to be used." For category operations, more
    equipment is required and perhaps that is what you were referring to.

    Since for an Instrument check ride you have to do 3 different
    approaches, that USUALLY referred to a VOR with LOC and GS (to do 2 of the
    3) and an ADF for the NDB approach. Now with NDBs being sunset, other
    navigation equipment is required and up to the pilot. Options are DME, and
    approach certified GPS.

    I started my training with just a single NAV-COM with GS and an ADF.
    That was enough to get me through my ride but in the middle of training I
    added a GPS and 2nd NAV/COM however, the GPS was not "certified" when I
    took my ride so I just did the 3 usual approaches.. ILS, LOC and NDB.

    For safety, as you mention, it's nice to have the 2nd NAV/COM and makes
    it alot easier to check calibration of the VOR which must be done every 30
    days.

    Spending the $8k to upgrade our plane with IFR GPS, 2nd NAV/COM and Audio
    Panel was the best money we spent yet. I use ALL that stuff almost every
    flight now not to mention the improvement in resale value, but do it for
    YOURSELF, not the next guy !!

    Dr Bill
    N9230S 76 Sundowner

  4. #4

    Val Radio/Nav equip

    Steve, I think we agree. I just would have separated your statement to "FAA
    REQUIREMENTS" and personal safety. IMC flight is not for everyone. Getting
    up in the soup with an instructor with the minimal equipment requires REAL
    trust in the equipment. Many pilots I know don't have that trust.
    As you can see from my post that I added a 2nd NAV/COM and GPS to make me
    feel right.. I also have a handheld NAV/COM and GPS as backup (luckliy
    never had to take out of the flight bag ...YET).

    One thing I don't understand is your "need" for a 3 light MLB... While a
    nice thing, I think I've only flown one approach that had the marker
    beacons.
    Dr Bill

    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of ke4oh
    Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:01 PM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [musketeermail] Re: Val Radio/Nav equip



    Okay, Dr. Bill ... I did NOT specify a list of "required" radio
    equipment. Here is what I said: "Look, here's what you need at a
    minimum to meet FAA requirements and for your safety: You need 2
    VORs, 2 COMs, 1 GS, 1 3-light marker beacon receiver."

    My list is a combo of what is required and what any sane pilot NEEDS
    to safely launch into the soup.

    What IS required for the instrument check ride is 1 precision
    approach and 2 non-precision approaches plus demonstrate tracking an
    airway, holds at intersections, etc. So, to do the precision
    approach and lacking an appropriate GPS, one needs a LOC/GS receiver
    and a 3-LMB. Sure, there are some ILS approaches around that don't
    require a 3-LMB. But most of them do. The non-precision approaches
    can be LOC, LOC BC, SDF, or VOR if one only has LOC and VOR
    equipment. An NDB approach is not required. As to holding at an
    intersection (or even identifying one), the average bear is going to
    have a dang hard time doing that with a single VOR, which is what
    Gary will have if he doesn't upgrade or replace his VAL. How would
    you like to do that on a check ride? How 'bout in actual IFR? Can it
    be done? Sure. But what a workload! Also, what I'm suggesting isn't
    going to cost anywhere near $8K.

    All I'm saying that Gary NEEDS to add in the way of NAV gear is a 3-
    LMB. But I'm also saying that for reasonable workload, 2 working VOR
    indicators is a must. And for safety, an extra COM is a must.

    Come on, Bill. You're just trying to pick a cyberfight. I've met
    you. You seemed to be a sane and careful pilot. Would YOU go up in
    the clouds without an extra COM and a way to identify intersections
    (either an extra VOR or a DME or a GPS)? Would you encourage a
    newbie instrument pilot to do so?

    Gary, do what you will. But you will make your training and
    checkride so much harder if you cheap out on equipment. Flying ain't
    cheap. Equipping for reasonable IFR has a cost.

    Best regards,

    Steve Robertson
    N4732J 1967 Super III

  5. #5
    Just for thr record "GPS equipment must be instrument certified and
    contain the current database. "

    The FAA does NOT requiry that a current data base be installed........It requires that if you fly an ILS approach using the GPS, The data base must be current OR you must check the plates where you are going and verify that the approach points have NOT changed from your data base. This was brought up at a recent "FAA CFI road show" that I attended. The approach "pack" on any GPS is considered an option and as long as you can prove the places you are going have not changed you are OK. By the way I am not suggesting that you make a habbit of doing this, but it is legal....more proof....when I took my IFR check ride the data base was out of date by about 4 days and after showing the DE my current plate book and comparing the two data bases he gave the check ride.

    I'm a CFI,CFII I'm not trying to be a Smart *** but this info just may save someone out there if you get ramp-checked after landing on an IFR flight plan and anyone says that your data base is out of date. You are still legal if you verified the data before you left !!

    Steve Nelson CFI, CFII

    N18903

  6. #6

    Val Radio/Nav equip

    Hi Pilotham. Does that mean a pilot who is also into ham radio? As to your comments, I have you beat with almost 63 years, and can attest to the fact that you are right on the money!! I have been blessed with never having lost everything in "hard" IFR, but to lose ANYTHING in even marginal IFR is no picknic!! I haven't flown IFR in probably 15 years, and at 81, I'm not about to!! I'm in the good category, an old, but not so very bold, pilot!! Dpwnright cowardly, at the appropriate times! On the marginal bit, night flying in marginal conditions is NOT vfr! I've seen too many people get in trouble with it. While instructing out of my former FBO at Boca Raton, I gave night checkouts to many people, and refused to do it for students. My favorite stunt was to fly off shore a short distance, say, with the shore and lights off the right wing. Then I would casually say, "OK, lets' make a 180 to the left and head back north". I more than once found us in a 45 deg bank, descending, and had to straighten things out! In just about every case, the guy never realized what was going on until I hit the controls!
    So if you want to fly IFR, you'd better be well qualified, and IN PRACTICE! Once a year is worthless! Lee Robinson W. Palm Beach, FL

    >
    > From: Pilotham <pilotham@bellsouth.net>
    > Date: 2007/05/04 Fri PM 12:59:21 EST
    > To: <musketeermail@yahoogroups.com>
    > Subject: [musketeermail] Re: Val Radio/Nav equip
    >
    > A personal view from a 40+ year pilot (for what it may be worth...)
    >
    > Flying IFR has many dimensions! Just filing an IFR flight plan and flying it
    > (in VFR or marginal conditions) represents one end of the spectrum. "Hard IFR"
    > or when the SHTF weather is at the other end. The vast majority of "IFR Rated"
    > pilots are MARGINALLY capable of flying safely in "HARD IFR" weather and
    > (most) avoid it. However, when you file IFR and..., the SHTF..., you want to
    > have all the redundant equipment you can lay your hands on!
    >
    > Having minimal equipment (with "hoped for" accuracy) can easily become a death
    > sentence!
    >
    > Personally, I carry a backup Nav/Com and GPS unit in my flight bag (they have
    > been required twice in the past 20 years). In addition, having been much
    > younger and still in possession of my "Invulnerability Cloak", I encountered an
    > IFR flight where everything went wrong and the primary and secondary airports
    > were both at 200' (optimistically...). This was in addition to a very long
    > flight and having run out of oxygen for the last hour of flight! After one
    > missed approach, I made it in..., not seeing the runway until roughly 100-150'
    > AGL!
    >
    > This was pre-GPS but in a high performance single with dual GS indicators and
    > DME. That was the last time I bothered to fly IFR (unless needing to complete a
    > VFR flight in very mild IFR conditions!
    >
    > You have to ask yourself "Do I feel lucky" with any IFR flight with minimal
    > equipment!
    >
    > Just my humble opinion as a firm believer in the maxim..., "There are old
    > pilots and bold pilots..., but NO OLD BOLD PILOTS!"
    >
    >
    >
    >



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  7. #7

    Val Radio/Nav equip

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, <robincom@...> wrote:
    >
    > On the marginal bit, night flying in marginal conditions is NOT
    vfr! I've seen too many people get in trouble with it. While
    instructing out of my former FBO at Boca Raton, I gave night
    checkouts to many people, and refused to do it for students.

    *** I remember doing the obligatory night flights during my Private.
    Never saw anything so black. Couldn't even see the nose of the
    airplane. And this was in a 1948 Cessna 140 - no attitude indicator,
    just needle, ball & airspeed. See
    http://www.tr2.com/jerry/aviation/lessons/lesson58.html
    After earning my Private, I basically NEVER flew at night until I got
    the Instrument.
    Now I fly at night routinely, but always carefully. I never ad-lib
    anything at night. Only do it over routes I know well. Always with
    GPS guidance, and/or on an IFR flight plan.
    Here in Northern California, night flying is often useful to escape
    the winds and turbulence that occur on summer afternoons. The Central
    Valley gets really REALLY hot, hosting a rising column of hot air.
    Replacement cooler air has to come from somewhere, and it comes from
    the Pacific Ocean, shooting over the low spots in the hills. When
    the sun goes down, the action calms down.

    - Jerry Kaidor ( jerry@tr2.com )




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