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Thread: Airworthiness Certificate

  1. #1

    Airworthiness Certificate

    I purchased my plane without an airworthiness certificate. The prior
    owners turned it in to the FAA stating the aircraft was salvaged.
    The damage was done to the lower skin and engine mount. I contacted
    my local FSDO about obtaining a new airworthiness certificate. I was
    instructed to complete a 337 detailing all work that was performed
    and then fill out an application for an airworthiness certificate. A
    inspector was to come and comfirm that the plane still meets the
    conditions of a certified airplane. Easy enough. I called to see if
    the plane could be out of annual and not in a flyable state during
    the inspection. His answer was "NO". The plane needs to be in
    annual and in flyable condition (not sure how I can do that without
    an airworthiness certificate). He also wants all interior removed
    and panels to inspect for hidden damage. This is where I get
    confused. What did I pay my IA for? Didn't my IA inspect for hidden
    damage? I myself as an A&P inspected for hidden damage. Is he going
    to contradict anything different than my IA. It seems that I should
    have had an FAA inspector look at my plane prior to the work. I'm
    venting a little so please forgive me. What is the purpose of
    IA's? I thought they represented the FAA. Do they not trust their
    own? Let me know if there is something else I should do.

    Mike Hippensteel
    C23 M1449




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  2. #2

    Airworthiness Certificate

    mhippenste wrote:
    >I purchased my plane without an airworthiness certificate. The prior
    >owners turned it in to the FAA stating the aircraft was salvaged.

    Hope you got it REAL cheap as salvage parts, because the hoops you have to
    jump through to get the FAA to issue a new airworthiness are often not much
    fun.

    >The damage was done to the lower skin and engine mount. I contacted
    >my local FSDO about obtaining a new airworthiness certificate. I was
    >instructed to complete a 337 detailing all work that was performed
    >and then fill out an application for an airworthiness certificate.

    This may, or may not be accurate. A 337 is used to document a "major
    repair", and having the mount OH, or buying a serviceable one and
    re-hanging the engine is only a log book entry. The extent of the repair
    to the belly is going to be the determining issue. Not really a PROBLEM
    with the 337, and if they are ASKING for one, then perhaps its easiest to
    "go along to get along" with the FSDO.

    >An inspector was to come and comfirm that the plane still meets the
    >conditions of a certified airplane. Easy enough. I called to see if
    >the plane could be out of annual and not in a flyable state during
    >the inspection. His answer was "NO". The plane needs to be in
    >annual and in flyable condition (not sure how I can do that without
    >an airworthiness certificate).

    Again, this is NOT required, but if they want it, then give them a log
    entry where the plane was inspected I/A/W and annual inspection using the
    Beech checklist, and mark that a signed dated list of discrepancies was
    given the owner. Obviously without an airworthiness and registration, it
    can't be "airworthy", so you have enough discrepancies right
    there. Further they want it disassembled on the interior, so that is
    another squawk that prevents an airworthy sign off. So just make the log
    entries and then show them to the inspector, and explain that after his
    inspection for hidden damage, etc. that the remaining items will be cleared.

    >He also wants all interior removed and panels to inspect for hidden
    >damage. This is where I get confused. What did I pay my IA for? Didn't
    >my IA inspect for hidden damage? I myself as an A&P inspected for hidden
    >damage. Is he going to contradict anything different than my IA. It
    >seems that I should
    >have had an FAA inspector look at my plane prior to the work. I'm
    >venting a little so please forgive me.

    You are asking the FAA to inspect the plane for conformity, and although
    they CAN authorize an IA or Certified Repair Station to make that
    inspection (very much like the Certificate of Export inspection), you have
    a guy on your hands that isn't comfortable with the process you have
    proposed. You might have gotten away with it if you had brought the
    paperwork in and had the Application for Airworthiness (8130-6) filled out,
    but you started the contact with the FAA in a manner that they recognized
    that you are not familiar with the process, so they are going to walk you
    through it.

    >What is the purpose of IA's? I thought they represented the FAA. Do they
    >not trust their own?

    IA assists the OWNER in verifying the airworthiness of the plane. An IA
    can only do 4 things, per FAR 65.95. IAs are NOT FAA employees of
    designated representatives.

    >Let me know if there is something else I should do.

    Just complete the paperwork they ask for, have the plane opened up, and if
    its before lunch, have a fresh box of donuts sitting on the wing or tool
    box when he gets there, and offer him one. <G>

    Its amazing the power of a good glazed donut to soften the heart of the FAA
    bureaucrat.

    Bob Steward, A&P IA
    Birmingham, AL




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  3. #3

    Airworthiness Certificate

    An IA is not a DAR (Designated Airworthiness Rep) which is the only one
    besides the FAA who can issue a certificate. What you did sounds like the
    right thing. Have an IA look things over before you call either a DAR or the
    FAA. Get everything fixed and inspected and make sure the IA documented
    everything he finds. Show this list to the DAR or FAA.

    My good friend is a DAR and he does this sort of thing everyday. Make sure
    that your venting is done before the FAA arrives and help the inspector in
    every way you can and be polite. It will make the whole thing go much better
    I promise.

    Jeff Bryant
    Southwest Regional Director
    Beech Aero Club




    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of mhippenste
    Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:46 PM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [musketeermail] Airworthiness Certificate


    I purchased my plane without an airworthiness certificate. The prior
    owners turned it in to the FAA stating the aircraft was salvaged.
    The damage was done to the lower skin and engine mount. I contacted
    my local FSDO about obtaining a new airworthiness certificate. I was
    instructed to complete a 337 detailing all work that was performed
    and then fill out an application for an airworthiness certificate. A
    inspector was to come and comfirm that the plane still meets the
    conditions of a certified airplane. Easy enough. I called to see if
    the plane could be out of annual and not in a flyable state during
    the inspection. His answer was "NO". The plane needs to be in
    annual and in flyable condition (not sure how I can do that without
    an airworthiness certificate). He also wants all interior removed
    and panels to inspect for hidden damage. This is where I get
    confused. What did I pay my IA for? Didn't my IA inspect for hidden
    damage? I myself as an A&P inspected for hidden damage. Is he going
    to contradict anything different than my IA. It seems that I should
    have had an FAA inspector look at my plane prior to the work. I'm
    venting a little so please forgive me. What is the purpose of
    IA's? I thought they represented the FAA. Do they not trust their
    own? Let me know if there is something else I should do.

    Mike Hippensteel
    C23 M1449




    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org





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    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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  4. #4

    Airworthiness Certificate

    Bob Steward gave you a good answer and I'll add a couple of thoughts
    from being where you are, but with an antique Stinson.

    You questioned why the FAA's Aviation Safety Inspector (ASI) can
    override the AI and Bob was right in that there are only a limited
    number of things an AI is qualified for. But, in more direct answer
    to your question, Part 43.9 says that the 337 form needs to be
    disposed of and guess who gets the 337 after the AI? The FAA that
    this ASI represents! At that point you are out of the FARs and into
    the world of the Inspector's Handbook, which you can find on the web
    as 8300.10. It's the real operating rules that the ASI has to
    follow.

    What probably caught your ASI's attention was that when an
    airworthiness certificate is turned in, the airplane is no more.
    There's just a pile of parts that may or may not look like an
    airplane. This is a BIG flashing red caution light at any FSDO.
    Then (like Bob wrote) you start asking questions that showed you
    didn't totally understand what needed to be done to make it legally
    airworthy again. At that point, I sure hope you didn't get
    emotional or say anything other than "Yes sir. Thank you sir."

    What bothers me is that the AI didn't communicate with an FAA person
    he's regularly working with, so think about whether the AI is in
    good standing. (That's between you & him - I don't want to know!)
    You brought yourself and this airplane to the attention of the great
    cyclops of the FAA, so you need to keep communicating until you come
    to SOME resolution with them. Asking the ASI about his trust in your
    AI and what you can do to improve your situation are fair questions.

    If you get nothing else out of this, my message would be not to give
    up. Sounds like your FAA person is being very cautious (his
    signature and family income are on the line), but it sounds like he
    is also giving you the ability to see this through.

    The best thing I'd suggest is to make sure the plane is clean
    (amazing how much this helps), the repairs really follow what's
    acceptable, and the documentation is straight. If you're an A&P you
    should know how to make the first two happen. Sounds like the FAA
    is willing to guide you on the documentation part. Like Bob said,
    go along and you'll probably get along.

    "The Other Bob"
    Bob Swaim
    A&P, Aero Eng

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "mhippenste" <c23n2114w@a...>
    wrote:
    > I purchased my plane without an airworthiness certificate. The
    prior
    > owners turned it in to the FAA stating the aircraft was salvaged.
    > The damage was done to the lower skin and engine mount. I
    contacted
    > my local FSDO about obtaining a new airworthiness certificate. I
    was
    > instructed to complete a 337 detailing all work that was performed
    > and then fill out an application for an airworthiness
    certificate. A
    > inspector was to come and comfirm that the plane still meets the
    > conditions of a certified airplane. Easy enough. I called to see
    if
    > the plane could be out of annual and not in a flyable state during
    > the inspection. His answer was "NO". The plane needs to be in
    > annual and in flyable condition (not sure how I can do that
    without
    > an airworthiness certificate). He also wants all interior removed
    > and panels to inspect for hidden damage. This is where I get
    > confused. What did I pay my IA for? Didn't my IA inspect for
    hidden
    > damage? I myself as an A&P inspected for hidden damage. Is he
    going
    > to contradict anything different than my IA. It seems that I
    should
    > have had an FAA inspector look at my plane prior to the work. I'm
    > venting a little so please forgive me. What is the purpose of
    > IA's? I thought they represented the FAA. Do they not trust
    their
    > own? Let me know if there is something else I should do.
    >
    > Mike Hippensteel
    > C23 M1449




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