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Thread: Wheel pants from Powerflow

  1. #1
    Guest
    Guest

    Wheel pants from Powerflow

    For those that aren't members of the Beech Aero Club,
    Powerflow announced that they were accepting
    refundable deposits on the wheel pants for our series
    aircraft. They need (50) fifty deposits of (500.00)
    five hundred by March 2008. If they obtain these, the
    certification should be finished by 12/08. The cost
    for those putting down a deposit is approx 3750.00.
    The price goes up if you didn't place a deposit. If
    interested contact Tyler Reed 1-877-693-7356

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  2. #2

    Wheel pants from Powerflow

    >For those that aren't members of the Beech Aero Club, Powerflow announced
    >that they were accepting refundable deposits on the wheel pants for our series
    >aircraft. They need (50) fifty deposits of (500.00) five hundred by March
    >2008. If they obtain these, the certification should be finished by 12/08.
    >The cost
    >for those putting down a deposit is approx 3750.00.

    Quantifiable performance increases would be nice. Any published data? At
    $4000+ installed, probably $4500+ installed and painted -- it would be nice
    to know that they DO something other than hide the wheels and make it
    harder to put air in the tires.

    Are there photos of the installed pants available on-line?

    Most OEM pants on GA planes are good for a couple knots per their POH
    performance data. Some of the aftermarket STC packages with wheel pants
    and gear leg cleanup pieces are good for 5-7 knots on C, P and G models.

    With the larger cabin and increased wetted area, I always wondered if there
    were enough gear drag to make a reasonable change in the performance of the
    Musketeer series. And then there is the loss of useful load from the
    additional weight of the pants. A typical GA set of pants weighs in the
    20-25# range.

    The Sierra with its retracts is considerably slower than some of the other
    200 HP retracts. And even slower than the Grumman Tiger with less HP,
    fixed gear and fixed pitch prop. Therefore, one wonders if the GEAR is
    contributing enough drag to make measurable differences.

    Numbers please!

    Bob Steward, A&P IA
    Birmingham, AL



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  3. #3
    Guest
    Guest

    Wheel pants from Powerflow

    In my opinion....

    Putting pants on a mouse is about as useful as putting lipstick on a
    pitbull. I love my mouse and I loved my cherokees before... but you
    simply will not make these aircraft into anything even remotely
    resembling a speed machine. My guess is that you'll not see
    performance data on these pants, and if you do, it won't be
    accurate. I did alot of testing on my Cherokee 140 before and after
    putting pants on it. The wheelpants cost me about $750 painted and
    provided me exactly zero knots speed increase, zero gph improvement
    in economy, 30lbs lost in useful load, and a hell of a shimmy after
    landing.

    If you want better economy from your Mouse, get your CG more aft
    where it belongs and apply a nice coat of wax (to the top AND bottom
    of the aircraft.) It's amazing what it will do for this bird.

    Mooney = Cramped Speed
    Commanche = Not so Cramped Speed
    Cherokee = Slow and Easy
    Mouse = Slow and Comfy

    Tom Siler
    '78 Sundowner N5255M
    Columbus, OH



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  4. #4
    Guest
    Guest

    Wheel pants from Powerflow

    Atsa fact, good write up.
    Al Todd Sierra 9321S


    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Tom
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:18 AM
    Subject: [musketeermail] Re: Wheel pants from Powerflow


    In my opinion....

    Putting pants on a mouse is about as useful as putting lipstick on a
    pitbull. I love my mouse and I loved my cherokees before... but you
    simply will not make these aircraft into anything even remotely
    resembling a speed machine. My guess is that you'll not see
    performance data on these pants, and if you do, it won't be
    accurate. I did alot of testing on my Cherokee 140 before and after
    putting pants on it. The wheelpants cost me about $750 painted and
    provided me exactly zero knots speed increase, zero gph improvement
    in economy, 30lbs lost in useful load, and a hell of a shimmy after
    landing.

    If you want better economy from your Mouse, get your CG more aft
    where it belongs and apply a nice coat of wax (to the top AND bottom
    of the aircraft.) It's amazing what it will do for this bird.

    Mooney = Cramped Speed
    Commanche = Not so Cramped Speed
    Cherokee = Slow and Easy
    Mouse = Slow and Comfy

    Tom Siler
    '78 Sundowner N5255M
    Columbus, OH





    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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  5. #5
    Guest
    Guest

    Wheel pants from Powerflow

    Here is how I view the purchase. The data is a 6 MPH
    or knot increase(I don't remember which) and a 20 lb
    loss in gross weight. I usually fly 5 hour legs and
    the 6 mph would give me equivalent to a VFR reserve.
    The weight in my opinion is not an issue. If you pick
    up speed, ROC will probably increase also, stands to
    reason. However, I am buying the pants for another
    reason. I don't think the plane has a finished look
    without them. If you look through trade a plane, ASO
    etc, the Pipers are fetching a higher price for nearly
    the same performance. The ones with wheel pants
    display this fact boldly and seem to sell quicker than
    the ones without. I'm sure most brokers would verify
    this statement. (I'm talking similar times and
    equipment). I think the wheel pants will make our
    aircraft attractive to future buyers. I don't plan on
    selling anytime soon but, when the time comes, I don't
    want to be sitting on the plane for six months. When I
    sell, I will be touting the 6 mph increase as a
    reduced fuel burn (throttle back and retain the same
    speed as before)or longer range and better looks-my
    opinion. With the high cost of fuel, I can get down to
    8.5 per hour. With the pants and 6 MPH increase, I
    could reduce the additional RPM and save more. This
    could be the factor that seals the deal. Anyway, I
    will be applying lipstick to my pitbull. I hope others
    will think the idea is good too. But, if they don't,
    we will all still be Musketeer guys/Gals !!! One for
    all and all for one-Bob
    --- Tom <tom43004@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > In my opinion....
    >
    > Putting pants on a mouse is about as useful as
    > putting lipstick on a
    > pitbull. I love my mouse and I loved my cherokees
    > before... but you
    > simply will not make these aircraft into anything
    > even remotely
    > resembling a speed machine. My guess is that you'll
    > not see
    > performance data on these pants, and if you do, it
    > won't be
    > accurate. I did alot of testing on my Cherokee 140
    > before and after
    > putting pants on it. The wheelpants cost me about
    > $750 painted and
    > provided me exactly zero knots speed increase, zero
    > gph improvement
    > in economy, 30lbs lost in useful load, and a hell of
    > a shimmy after
    > landing.
    >
    > If you want better economy from your Mouse, get your
    > CG more aft
    > where it belongs and apply a nice coat of wax (to
    > the top AND bottom
    > of the aircraft.) It's amazing what it will do for
    > this bird.
    >
    > Mooney = Cramped Speed
    > Commanche = Not so Cramped Speed
    > Cherokee = Slow and Easy
    > Mouse = Slow and Comfy
    >
    > Tom Siler
    > '78 Sundowner N5255M
    > Columbus, OH
    >
    >


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  6. #6

    Wheel pants from Powerflow

    First of all:
    Rate of Climb (ROC) is a function of excess horsepower and EXCESS ONLY.
    Excess power comes from having more horsepower then drag and I have to
    believe that these pants will increase drag. So if anything, the ROC will
    de-crease some (Function of additional weight and drag).

    I have to believe that the only purpose of this modification is that it will
    make the aircraft look better and more modern. That's it.............Nothing
    else...........

    As already said, The best thing you can do to these aircraft is to move the
    CG aft. Less trim drag will increase the speed way more than any wheel
    pants.

    Jeff Bryant


    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Robert Lewis
    Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:26 AM
    To: Tom; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] Re: Wheel pants from Powerflow



    Here is how I view the purchase. The data is a 6 MPH
    or knot increase(I don't remember which) and a 20 lb
    loss in gross weight. I usually fly 5 hour legs and
    the 6 mph would give me equivalent to a VFR reserve.
    The weight in my opinion is not an issue. If you pick
    up speed, ROC will probably increase also, stands to
    reason. However, I am buying the pants for another
    reason. I don't think the plane has a finished look
    without them. If you look through trade a plane, ASO
    etc, the Pipers are fetching a higher price for nearly
    the same performance. The ones with wheel pants
    display this fact boldly and seem to sell quicker than
    the ones without. I'm sure most brokers would verify
    this statement. (I'm talking similar times and
    equipment). I think the wheel pants will make our
    aircraft attractive to future buyers. I don't plan on
    selling anytime soon but, when the time comes, I don't
    want to be sitting on the plane for six months. When I
    sell, I will be touting the 6 mph increase as a
    reduced fuel burn (throttle back and retain the same
    speed as before)or longer range and better looks-my
    opinion. With the high cost of fuel, I can get down to
    8.5 per hour. With the pants and 6 MPH increase, I
    could reduce the additional RPM and save more. This
    could be the factor that seals the deal. Anyway, I
    will be applying lipstick to my pitbull. I hope others
    will think the idea is good too. But, if they don't,
    we will all still be Musketeer guys/Gals !!! One for
    all and all for one-Bob
    --- Tom <tom43004@yahoo. <mailto:tom43004%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:

    > In my opinion....
    >
    > Putting pants on a mouse is about as useful as
    > putting lipstick on a
    > pitbull. I love my mouse and I loved my cherokees
    > before... but you
    > simply will not make these aircraft into anything
    > even remotely
    > resembling a speed machine. My guess is that you'll
    > not see
    > performance data on these pants, and if you do, it
    > won't be
    > accurate. I did alot of testing on my Cherokee 140
    > before and after
    > putting pants on it. The wheelpants cost me about
    > $750 painted and
    > provided me exactly zero knots speed increase, zero
    > gph improvement
    > in economy, 30lbs lost in useful load, and a hell of
    > a shimmy after
    > landing.
    >
    > If you want better economy from your Mouse, get your
    > CG more aft
    > where it belongs and apply a nice coat of wax (to
    > the top AND bottom
    > of the aircraft.) It's amazing what it will do for
    > this bird.
    >
    > Mooney = Cramped Speed
    > Commanche = Not so Cramped Speed
    > Cherokee = Slow and Easy
    > Mouse = Slow and Comfy
    >
    > Tom Siler
    > '78 Sundowner N5255M
    > Columbus, OH
    >
    >

    __________________________________________________
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    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    http://mail. <http://mail.yahoo.com> yahoo.com





    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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  7. #7

    Wheel pants from Powerflow

    The idea behind wheel pants is to DECREASE drag. If they wheel pants do not decrease drag, or if they increase drag they are less than worthless. I think we will find that they do decrease drag a little, but the improvement will be difficult to quantify. The information that I have been able to gather would indicate that the breaking point for improvement is around 100 knots cruise speed, so I will be very surprised if wheel pants improve speed even 1 or 2 knots which I believe is the claimed improvement for the C172 and Cherokee 140. They help a little more as speed increases well above 100 knots. The test data will be interesting when it becomes available.

    ----- Original Message ----
    From: Jeff and Teresa Bryant <jnt.bryant@verizon.net>
    To: Robert Lewis <vpd401@yahoo.com>; Tom <tom43004@yahoo.com>; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:39:53 PM
    Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Re: Wheel pants from Powerflow

    First of all:
    Rate of Climb (ROC) is a function of excess horsepower and EXCESS ONLY.
    Excess power comes from having more horsepower then drag and I have to
    believe that these pants will increase drag. So if anything, the ROC will
    de-crease some (Function of additional weight and drag).

    I have to believe that the only purpose of this modification is that it will
    make the aircraft look better and more modern. That's it.............Nothing
    else...........

    As already said, The best thing you can do to these aircraft is to move the
    CG aft. Less trim drag will increase the speed way more than any wheel
    pants.

    Jeff Bryant


    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Robert Lewis
    Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:26 AM
    To: Tom; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] Re: Wheel pants from Powerflow



    Here is how I view the purchase. The data is a 6 MPH
    or knot increase(I don't remember which) and a 20 lb
    loss in gross weight. I usually fly 5 hour legs and
    the 6 mph would give me equivalent to a VFR reserve.
    The weight in my opinion is not an issue. If you pick
    up speed, ROC will probably increase also, stands to
    reason. However, I am buying the pants for another
    reason. I don't think the plane has a finished look
    without them. If you look through trade a plane, ASO
    etc, the Pipers are fetching a higher price for nearly
    the same performance. The ones with wheel pants
    display this fact boldly and seem to sell quicker than
    the ones without. I'm sure most brokers would verify
    this statement. (I'm talking similar times and
    equipment). I think the wheel pants will make our
    aircraft attractive to future buyers. I don't plan on
    selling anytime soon but, when the time comes, I don't
    want to be sitting on the plane for six months. When I
    sell, I will be touting the 6 mph increase as a
    reduced fuel burn (throttle back and retain the same
    speed as before)or longer range and better looks-my
    opinion. With the high cost of fuel, I can get down to
    8.5 per hour. With the pants and 6 MPH increase, I
    could reduce the additional RPM and save more. This
    could be the factor that seals the deal. Anyway, I
    will be applying lipstick to my pitbull. I hope others
    will think the idea is good too. But, if they don't,
    we will all still be Musketeer guys/Gals !!! One for
    all and all for one-Bob
    --- Tom <tom43004@yahoo. <mailto:tom43004%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:

    > In my opinion....
    >
    > Putting pants on a mouse is about as useful as
    > putting lipstick on a
    > pitbull. I love my mouse and I loved my cherokees
    > before... but you
    > simply will not make these aircraft into anything
    > even remotely
    > resembling a speed machine. My guess is that you'll
    > not see
    > performance data on these pants, and if you do, it
    > won't be
    > accurate. I did alot of testing on my Cherokee 140
    > before and after
    > putting pants on it. The wheelpants cost me about
    > $750 painted and
    > provided me exactly zero knots speed increase, zero
    > gph improvement
    > in economy, 30lbs lost in useful load, and a hell of
    > a shimmy after
    > landing.
    >
    > If you want better economy from your Mouse, get your
    > CG more aft
    > where it belongs and apply a nice coat of wax (to
    > the top AND bottom
    > of the aircraft.) It's amazing what it will do for
    > this bird.
    >
    > Mooney = Cramped Speed
    > Commanche = Not so Cramped Speed
    > Cherokee = Slow and Easy
    > Mouse = Slow and Comfy
    >
    > Tom Siler
    > '78 Sundowner N5255M
    > Columbus, OH
    >
    >

    __________________________________________________
    Do You Yahoo!?
    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
    http://mail. <http://mail.yahoo.com> yahoo.com





    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org


    Yahoo! Groups Links









    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org


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    <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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  8. #8

    Wheel pants from Powerflow

    I completely agree with Willis Cooke.

    I really do believe that if you buy these wheel pants, buy them for the
    overall looks. From what I have seen so far, on the Musketeer they will look
    great and give it a more modern look. I do not think they will take away
    from current performance but I would not buy them thinking I was going to
    see anything fantastic in performance increases. As far as a decrease in
    drag, It would be interesting to really see. As I have pointed out before,
    you are increasing the surface area around the wheels and this will equate
    to more drag due to the surface area. Those that have hub caps on there
    wheels I think will see more of an improvement with drag reduction than
    increasing the surface area the the entire wheel assy.

    The test data from who ever is doing the STC will be the defining source for
    this discussion.

    My 2c

    Jeff


    _____

    From: WILLIS COOKE [mailto:wrcooke@flash.net]
    Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 8:14 AM
    To: Jeff and Teresa Bryant; Robert Lewis; Tom; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] Re: Wheel pants from Powerflow


    The idea behind wheel pants is to DECREASE drag. If they wheel pants do not
    decrease drag, or if they increase drag they are less than worthless. I
    think we will find that they do decrease drag a little, but the improvement
    will be difficult to quantify. The information that I have been able to
    gather would indicate that the breaking point for improvement is around 100
    knots cruise speed, so I will be very surprised if wheel pants improve speed
    even 1 or 2 knots which I believe is the claimed improvement for the C172
    and Cherokee 140. They help a little more as speed increases well above 100
    knots. The test data will be interesting when it becomes available.


    ----- Original Message ----
    From: Jeff and Teresa Bryant <jnt.bryant@verizon.net>
    To: Robert Lewis <vpd401@yahoo.com>; Tom <tom43004@yahoo.com>;
    musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:39:53 PM
    Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Re: Wheel pants from Powerflow


    First of all:
    Rate of Climb (ROC) is a function of excess horsepower and EXCESS ONLY.
    Excess power comes from having more horsepower then drag and I have to
    believe that these pants will increase drag. So if anything, the ROC will
    de-crease some (Function of additional weight and drag).

    I have to believe that the only purpose of this modification is that it will
    make the aircraft look better and more modern. That's it.............Nothing
    else...........

    As already said, The best thing you can do to these aircraft is to move the
    CG aft. Less trim drag will increase the speed way more than any wheel
    pants.

    Jeff Bryant


    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Robert Lewis
    Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:26 AM
    To: Tom; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [musketeermail] Re: Wheel pants from Powerflow



    Here is how I view the purchase. The data is a 6 MPH
    or knot increase(I don't remember which) and a 20 lb
    loss in gross weight. I usually fly 5 hour legs and
    the 6 mph would give me equivalent to a VFR reserve.
    The weight in my opinion is not an issue. If you pick
    up speed, ROC will probably increase also, stands to
    reason. However, I am buying the pants for another
    reason. I don't think the plane has a finished look
    without them. If you look through trade a plane, ASO
    etc, the Pipers are fetching a higher price for nearly
    the same performance. The ones with wheel pants
    display this fact boldly and seem to sell quicker than
    the ones without. I'm sure most brokers would verify
    this statement. (I'm talking similar times and
    equipment). I think the wheel pants will make our
    aircraft attractive to future buyers. I don't plan on
    selling anytime soon but, when the time comes, I don't
    want to be sitting on the plane for six months. When I
    sell, I will be touting the 6 mph increase as a
    reduced fuel burn (throttle back and retain the same
    speed as before)or longer range and better looks-my
    opinion. With the high cost of fuel, I can get down to
    8.5 per hour. With the pants and 6 MPH increase, I
    could reduce the additional RPM and save more. This
    could be the factor that seals the deal. Anyway, I
    will be applying lipstick to my pitbull. I hope others
    will think the idea is good too. But, if they don't,
    we will all still be Musketeer guys/Gals !!! One for
    all and all for one-Bob
    --- Tom <tom43004@yahoo. <mailto:tom43004%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:

    > In my opinion....
    >
    > Putting pants on a mouse is about as useful as
    > putting lipstick on a
    > pitbull. I love my mouse and I loved my cherokees
    > before... but you
    > simply will not make these aircraft into anything
    > even remotely
    > resembling a speed machine. My guess is that you'll
    > not see
    > performance data on these pants, and if you do, it
    > won't be
    > accurate. I did alot of testing on my Cherokee 140
    > before and after
    > putting pants on it. The wheelpants cost me about
    > $750 painted and
    > provided me exactly zero knots speed increase, zero
    > gph improvement
    > in economy, 30lbs lost in useful load, and a hell of
    > a shimmy after
    > landing.
    >
    > If you want better economy from your Mouse, get your
    > CG more aft
    > where it belongs and apply a nice coat of wax (to
    > the top AND bottom
    > of the aircraft.) It's amazing what it will do for
    > this bird.
    >
    > Mooney = Cramped Speed
    > Commanche = Not so Cramped Speed
    > Cherokee = Slow and Easy
    > Mouse = Slow and Comfy
    >
    > Tom Siler
    > '78 Sundowner N5255M
    > Columbus, OH
    >
    >

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  9. #9
    Hi To Everyone!

    I 've been having fun reading the bantering going on between the nay-sayers and the proponents of the wheel pants. I must admit that I'm on the pro side.

    Has everyone involved gone to the Speedpants site and read the performance figures for Piper and Cessna aircraft, and looked at the video of the prototype pants on Robin's Sundowner? Also the comments of a Beech VP, from last years annual meeting at the Beech factory, who flew Robin's plane; and from others who had an opportunity to have a ride.

    The only way I can judge products offered by Robin, is by the Powerflow system inatalled on my Sport 150. The plane continues to give positive numbers. I just came back from a 570 mi trip and crunched the numbers on fuel. To my surprise I burned .5 gph less at my regular 75% cruise power setting. At the present fuel cost that is a savings of $2.00 an hour. This figure was calculated using the winds in both directions and the fuel burn from last years trip.

    I don't believe Robin would offer a product that would not give a
    performace increase. Will I purchase the pants?...not sure at this point but I probably will bite the bullet.

    Oh, by the way, for the drag happy crowd read about aerodynamics and drag reduction.

    Happy flying!

    Leo

  10. #10
    Yeah, this has been an interesting "discussion" to watch! The thing that will show people just how much drag the standard gear have, is to watch the tufting video on the Speed Pants page. The gear legs have too thick a cross section for their length. Robin is going to add a fairing to the rear of the leg as well as making a pant that will work with the trailing link gear. This will clean up the airflow considerably compared to the stock setup. I expect that those of us with the 6.00 X 6 tires will notice it even more than the ones with low profile tires as the large tires have more drag.

    I put my deposit down, and here's what I'm expecting. 5-6 MPH faster and nicer looks. Anything else like better glide (reported by several people since last year), and better rate of climb will be nice, but I'm not expecting them. If reduced drag increases excess HP, (everything I've read on aerodynamics says that's the case as speed climbs) then the climb rate should be affected positively. I'm not expecting miracles though.

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