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Thread: Landing Speeds

  1. #1

    Landing Speeds

    O.K. Guys....I've owned my mouse (C24R) for almost a year and am
    finally getting around to asking you (the experts) for advice on
    recommended speeds in the pattern (downwind, base and final). I found
    my instrument training to be much simpler when my CFI recommended
    certain Manifold Pressure settings/speeds for Instrument approaches.
    But on a VFR approach, every landing seems to be different; so I would
    like to "standardize" as much as possible my approach to landing. I
    don't have the POM as it is in N6008U parked in her hangar 30 miles
    away; so, I would like you advice.

    Thanks in advance


    Gene McPherson
    Magnolia, AR





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  2. #2

    Landing Speeds

    Hi Gene, I fly a super III and found that my best approaches are
    done at
    Downwind 90 kts-2000 rpm, reduce to 1500 rpm opposite the numberer's
    with the first notch of flaps.
    Base 80-85 kts with second notch of flaps.
    Final 75 knts- third notch of flaps.
    Touchdown 70 knts.

    Larry Stetz
    N5974S







    > O.K. Guys....I've owned my mouse (C24R) for almost a year and am
    > finally getting around to asking you (the experts) for advice on
    > recommended speeds in the pattern (downwind, base and final). I
    found
    > my instrument training to be much simpler when my CFI recommended
    > certain Manifold Pressure settings/speeds for Instrument
    approaches.
    > But on a VFR approach, every landing seems to be different; so I
    would
    > like to "standardize" as much as possible my approach to landing.
    I
    > don't have the POM as it is in N6008U parked in her hangar 30
    miles
    > away; so, I would like you advice.
    >
    > Thanks in advance
    >
    >
    > Gene McPherson
    > Magnolia, AR




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  3. #3

    Landing Speeds

    Gene,

    It looks like my #s are about the same as Larry's. My
    B24R indicates in mph, and I use round numbers, 105mph
    (best glide) downwind, 15 inches, first notch abeam
    #s, 95mph, with 2 notches on base, 85mph, with 3
    notches on final. Sometimes skip last notch, wind,
    long runway etc.
    --- hamlej1 <hamlej@cox.net> wrote:
    > Hi Gene, I fly a super III and found that my best
    > approaches are
    > done at
    > Downwind 90 kts-2000 rpm, reduce to 1500 rpm
    > opposite the numberer's
    > with the first notch of flaps.
    > Base 80-85 kts with second notch of flaps.
    > Final 75 knts- third notch of flaps.
    > Touchdown 70 knts.
    >
    > Larry Stetz
    > N5974S
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > O.K. Guys....I've owned my mouse (C24R) for almost
    > a year and am
    > > finally getting around to asking you (the experts)
    > for advice on
    > > recommended speeds in the pattern (downwind, base
    > and final). I
    > found
    > > my instrument training to be much simpler when my
    > CFI recommended
    > > certain Manifold Pressure settings/speeds for
    > Instrument
    > approaches.
    > > But on a VFR approach, every landing seems to be
    > different; so I
    > would
    > > like to "standardize" as much as possible my
    > approach to landing.
    > I
    > > don't have the POM as it is in N6008U parked in
    > her hangar 30
    > miles
    > > away; so, I would like you advice.
    > >
    > > Thanks in advance
    > >
    > >
    > > Gene McPherson
    > > Magnolia, AR
    >
    >
    >
    >
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    >
    >
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    > for the Musketeer series!
    >
    > www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    > Yahoo! Groups Links
    >
    >
    > musketeermail-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >



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  4. #4

    Landing Speeds

    ---Gene I have a B24R Sierra.
    I go downwind at 90 knots with gear down and zero
    flaps, turn base at 90 knots and pull full flaps. On
    final down to 80, generally higher than the VASI would
    indicate ie all white lights down there.. ( the Sierra
    sinks pretty good when you pull the power or if the
    mill would stop... try it ).Gradually reduce speed to
    80 knots ( still about 1800 revs), then to 75 knots (
    about 1600 revs). I aim for the numbers and will over
    the numbers at about 70 knots, hold of to bleed the
    speed and the bird settles at about 65 knots. Flying
    is done at 62 knots. Raise the manual flaps, go on the
    brakes and I am done in about 1000 feet.

    Cheers
    HarryR

    Gene McPherson <greenheadcpa@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > O.K. Guys....I've owned my mouse (C24R) for almost a
    > year and am
    > finally getting around to asking you (the experts)
    > for advice on
    > recommended speeds in the pattern (downwind, base
    > and final). I found
    > my instrument training to be much simpler when my
    > CFI recommended
    > certain Manifold Pressure settings/speeds for
    > Instrument approaches.
    > But on a VFR approach, every landing seems to be
    > different; so I would
    > like to "standardize" as much as possible my
    > approach to landing. I
    > don't have the POM as it is in N6008U parked in her
    > hangar 30 miles
    > away; so, I would like you advice.
    >
    > Thanks in advance
    >
    >
    > Gene McPherson
    > Magnolia, AR
    >
    >
    >
    >



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  5. #5

    Landing Speeds

    With all due respect, I submit that those numbers are way too fast,
    and will result in excessive wear and tear on the plane, brakes and
    tires, and will cause excessive float as well (or ballooning,
    bouncing and porpoising). I also have a Super III, and fly final at
    80 MPH, which is about 70 kts, with full flaps. Over the fence at 70
    MPH, flare, hold the plane off until the stall horn goes off, and let
    the plane touch down at the slowest possible speed, when it quits
    flying. After the mains touch, hold off the nose as long as you can,
    and gently lower it to the runway.

    Landing problems are mostly caused by excessive speed, which
    translates to excessive float and difficulty maintaining the center
    line during a x-wind.

    The FAA recommends that we fly our single-engine land, piston singles
    at 1.3 Vso on final. Go up and practice slow flight at your typical
    landing weight, and with the plane in the landing configuration (full
    flaps) note your airspeed when the stall horn goes off. Multiply
    that number by 1.3 and you will have a final approach speed that will
    give you plenty of room for error. You can use the Vso published in
    your POH (times 1.3), but it assumes max gross weight - and no one
    lands at max gross - do they?

    In any case, I guarantee that your final approach speed will be well
    below 80 knots (probably less than 80 mph, in fact), and your
    touchdown speed should be just above your stall speed.

    Try it - you'll like it!

    Phil
    N29JR


    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "hamlej1" <hamlej@c...> wrote:
    > Hi Gene, I fly a super III and found that my best approaches are
    > done at
    > Downwind 90 kts-2000 rpm, reduce to 1500 rpm opposite the
    numberer's
    > with the first notch of flaps.
    > Base 80-85 kts with second notch of flaps.
    > Final 75 knts- third notch of flaps.
    > Touchdown 70 knts.
    >
    > Larry Stetz
    > N5974S
    >
    > > O.K. Guys....I've owned my mouse (C24R) for almost a year and am
    > > finally getting around to asking you (the experts) for advice on
    > > recommended speeds in the pattern (downwind, base and final). I
    > found
    > > my instrument training to be much simpler when my CFI recommended
    > > certain Manifold Pressure settings/speeds for Instrument
    > approaches.
    > > But on a VFR approach, every landing seems to be different; so I
    > would
    > > like to "standardize" as much as possible my approach to
    landing.
    > I
    > > don't have the POM as it is in N6008U parked in her hangar 30
    > miles
    > > away; so, I would like you advice.
    > >
    > > Thanks in advance
    > >
    > >
    > > Gene McPherson
    > > Magnolia, AR




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  6. #6

    Landing Speeds

    Here's what I use on our C24R:

    Downwind-20"/100mph gear down 1 notch flaps
    Abeam touchdown point throttle back to 13" descend at 400-500 fpm
    Base 90 mph 2nd notch of flaps
    Final 80 mph 3rd notch of flaps

    I fly a pretty tight pattern ( at pattern altitude the runway bisects
    the outside 1/3 of the wing as a sight picture) and usually don't have
    to touch the throttle much until just before the flare when I fully
    close it. I land somewhere in the low 70 mph range. Your mileage may
    vary but this procedure works pretty consistently for me. It's based on
    being 1000' agl on downwind.

    Good luck.

    Dennis




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  7. #7

    Landing Speeds

    I'm good with these numbers from Dennis for the C24R, for full flaps and a cracked throttle. This is a good way to develop your sense for the aircraft's stored energy, attitudes and sight picture at each phase of landing, etc. If you start out in the habit of flying short final with a cracked throttle, make darn sure that the gear horn will still sound at the throttle setting you are using, if the gear is still up. Get the switch adjusted if it doesn't, or you'll get no warning during an impending gear-up touchdown. When you are able, start flying short final with a closed throttle. It takes more planning and develops higher skills. You win your personal energy management challenge when you can complete the pattern to touchdown with steady throttle reductions, no added throttle, and a closed throttle on short final. You can really start patting yourself on the back when you can do this from 50 miles out at 8,500 feet. Of course, this assumes you don't get danced around by ATC, and have no traffic conflicts.

    80 MPH is about 5 MPH too slow, for two or three notches and a closed throttle; your sink rate will be too high. You can adjust your sink rate with flaps. A lot of people put down flaps, then have to add throttle due to the higher drag; seems pointless to me, once you are familiar with the plane. Many early planes had no flaps; nor do some modern ones. They are a tool like all your other flight control tools; you can use them as suits the circumstances. Take the plane to maneuvering altitude, trim for 85 MPH with your approach power setting, then note the sink rate clean, and with each notch of added flaps.

    I usually fly decelerating approaches just for the practice, as they are a way of life for spam cans at busy commercial airports, if you want to be welcome. A three to five mile final at 80 MPH, in a line of jets, won't endear you to Approach or the Tower. Expect delays the next time you show up. On the other hand, an off-angle fast approach with a quick base-to-final a half-mile out at 100 MPH, decelerating onto the runway with touchdown at 70-72 MPH, lets them fit you in anytime. Ditto for a 140 MPH in-line final with the gear and flaps up, followed by a closed throttle, pitch up for rapid deceleration and gear out, then nose down and flaps down for a decelerating short final. The somewhat rapid closed throttle won't hurt the engine in this flight regime; at a probable 500 FPM descent rate with the plane clean, you aren't using a whole lot of power, the engine is getting plenty of cooling, and CHTs will already be low. This is all easy in the Sierra as it has a higher drag than the fixed-gear planes when configured for landing (blunt-faced main gear and constant-speed prop in flat pitch). You have to get comfortable with the plane before doing this.

    While it isn't all exactly speed related, you might enjoy reading some more info on BAC. Just search on the following text string (upper right search box), and read the highlighted FAQ:
    I'm looking for an inexpensive plane

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: n18996
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 5:51 PM
    Subject: [musketeermail] Re: Landing Speeds


    Here's what I use on our C24R:

    Downwind-20"/100mph gear down 1 notch flaps
    Abeam touchdown point throttle back to 13" descend at 400-500 fpm
    Base 90 mph 2nd notch of flaps
    Final 80 mph 3rd notch of flaps

    I fly a pretty tight pattern ( at pattern altitude the runway bisects
    the outside 1/3 of the wing as a sight picture) and usually don't have
    to touch the throttle much until just before the flare when I fully
    close it. I land somewhere in the low 70 mph range. Your mileage may
    vary but this procedure works pretty consistently for me. It's based on
    being 1000' agl on downwind.

    Good luck.

    Dennis

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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