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Thread: Instrument Approach Speeds

  1. #1

    Instrument Approach Speeds

    Flying the SUndowner, I was taught to fly at 90KTS after the IAF. That's
    what I do and my plane handles fine at that speed. Did my checkride at that
    and had no problems. (I think BAC has my report on my checkride in the files
    area). I have been flying an Arrow some and just about use the same speeds.

    Bill
    76 Sundowner N9230S



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  2. #2

    Instrument Approach Speeds

    I would also agree with Bill that 90 kts is a good approach speed. 110 kts
    seems a bit fast (and if you maintain it in a no wind situation, you are now
    using category B minimums). A lot of pilots drop their gear at the FAF and
    find that the extension of the gear provides pretty close to the desired
    descent rate without other changes.
    John

    -----Original Message-----
    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Dr Bill Heybruck
    Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 8:30 PM
    To: hoyle_taught_me_everything; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Instrument Approach Speeds


    Flying the SUndowner, I was taught to fly at 90KTS after the IAF. That's
    what I do and my plane handles fine at that speed. Did my checkride at that
    and had no problems. (I think BAC has my report on my checkride in the files
    area). I have been flying an Arrow some and just about use the same speeds.

    Bill
    76 Sundowner N9230S



    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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  3. #3

    Instrument Approach Speeds

    I support the 90 Knots number from the FAF inbound; this is essentially the normal VFR pattern entry speed. And at least in the Flatlands, you won't be too far away from pattern altitude by then. I keep the plane cleaned up until then, and fly at whatever speeds (and power settings) ATC requests or the winds imply.

    The FAF virtually always provides plenty of time to reconfigure the plane for landing. You have to check each Procedure, but most FAFs are about 5 NM from the runway; especially GPS-RNAV FAFs. If you look during practice approaches under VFR conditions, you'll see just how far away that really is, and how much time it actually leaves to get to the MDA, for configuration changes, and any resulting re-stabilization. As John notes, if you have the low power setting dialed in that results in 90 knots, just lowering the gear will usually result in the ideal sink rate.

    Since in most cases you'll be trying to get down to the MDA while inbound from the FAF, you'll want to get the gear down (and flaps in the fixed-gear planes) first, so that you don't pick up too much speed while you head down. In the days preceding GPS-derived descent profiles, most of us tried to get down to the MDA as soon as possible after the FAF (on non-precision approaches). The idea was to find out whether the bases were above minimums, see whether visible ground contact would be achieved, and to give a bit more time to make final trim changes and look outside for the airport environment.

    On the retracts you can fine-tune the FAF-inbound descent rate with flaps. Or if you prefer, you can extend partial flaps at the IAF, but you will then just have to add more power (fuel $$) to overcome the drag of the flaps, throughout the approach. Most people wind up adding remaining flap extension during Final anyway. Flaps help lower the nose for visibility, add more drag than lift to help reduce float, improve the approach angle for short fields, and usually require slight trim changes. The actual difference in minimum landing speed in our planes, between flaps and no flaps, is seldom achieved by most pilots; almost everyone actually lands at the no-flaps speed or higher, making the few knots difference a theoretical argument. It is a different story on the heavier and faster aircraft, where the lift and drag change from flaps is much greater.

    My personal norm is to fly the entire approach gear-up, without flaps. If I expect a low ceiling (under about 800 feet AGL), gear goes out at the FAF, followed by flaps as needed when I see the field. An 800' AGL ceiling is essentially a VFR pattern altitude, allowing plenty of time for configuration fine-tuning. If I am expecting low ceilings (200'-450' AGL), which also implies that I am on an ILS, I go ahead and get everything configured at the FAF and change nothing but throttle during the final approach segment. This is also the most calm way to handle it when inexperienced, or when you have no clue about real ceiling conditions (and are exercising your Part 91 "take a look" option). Assuming you have the approach speed trimmed in, and don't try to seesaw the elevator to chase the glideslope, the throttle is your "altitude and descent rate control" during final, especially on an ILS.

    If you are still finding yourself "too busy" during the final approach segment, while you gain experience, by all means perform the complete configuration setup soon after reaching the IAF, and trim for 90 knots (and assuming relatively low density altitude operations, use the resulting throttle setting requirement with full RPM and full-rich). Just use the throttle from then onward, to manage your descent segments. That is the most simple way to manage the plane for the rest of the approach. More throttle will maintain altitude or reduce the descent rate, and vice-versa. Resist the temptation to seesaw the elevator instead. Just controlling descent with the throttle gives you more time for your scan (there will be fewer variances), and makes the transition to visual flight easier. You can trim more nose-up to slow down, when you have the runway made. As you trim to below 90 knots, you may find you actually need the same or higher throttle to control the descent rate, due to the drag rise curve. 90 knots is actually very close to the best-glide speed in a Sierra (when "clean"), so it has close to the lowest power requirement. It therefore burns the least fuel when flying the complete approach, if the plane is left "clean". Any faster, or much slower when "dirty", will require more power.

    High density altitude operations, high terrain operations, and mixing it up with jet traffic at busy fields, all require tailoring for the circumstances. If you can avoid it, it is best to leave those ops alone until you are comfortable with your plane and IFR practices. You have to be able to make unaccustomed changes at unaccustomed times, and deal with the associated transitions, without being overloaded by the different demands. I don't personally consider low ceilings to be a big issue, if you have trained yourself to always keep the plane within the approach-derived "cone of safety"on short final. But that's another topic altogether.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: John Waterman
    To: 'Dr Bill Heybruck' ; 'hoyle_taught_me_everything' ; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 6:20 AM
    Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Instrument Approach Speeds


    I would also agree with Bill that 90 kts is a good approach speed. 110 kts
    seems a bit fast (and if you maintain it in a no wind situation, you are now
    using category B minimums). A lot of pilots drop their gear at the FAF and
    find that the extension of the gear provides pretty close to the desired
    descent rate without other changes.
    John

    -----Original Message-----
    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Dr Bill Heybruck
    Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 8:30 PM
    To: hoyle_taught_me_everything; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: RE: [musketeermail] Instrument Approach Speeds


    Flying the SUndowner, I was taught to fly at 90KTS after the IAF. That's
    what I do and my plane handles fine at that speed. Did my checkride at that
    and had no problems. (I think BAC has my report on my checkride in the files
    area). I have been flying an Arrow some and just about use the same speeds.

    Bill
    76 Sundowner N9230S

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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  4. #4

    Instrument Approach Speeds

    RJF



    I took my instrument check ride (in a Piper Archer) back in November 2004
    and passed flying the Category "A" 90 MPH approach speed from prior to
    intercepting the final approach course to MDA/DH(A). My ATP certified CFII
    FAA Flight Safety Instructor also taught me to fly the approach in my
    Sundowner using the same procedure as with the Archer.



    1. If being vectored to final approach course, begin setting up
    (mixture full rich, fuel boost "on," slow to 90 MPH, 1 notch of flaps, carb
    heat as needed, landing gear - "3 in the green" even though fixed gear) for
    the approach course within 2 - 4 miles of intercepting the final approach
    course; or if flying the complete approach starting at IAF, also begin
    setting up within 2 - 4 miles of IAF.
    2. My CFII taught me to maintain assigned altitude until intercepting
    the final approach course. Interception, as taught, is achieved once the
    CDI is within 4 degrees of the final approach course rather than once the
    CDI begins moving off the peg from within 10 degrees.
    3. Fly the final approach course at 90 MPH until reaching MDA/DH(A).
    The only exception to maintaining Cat. A speed is if approach control
    instructs me to keep my speed up into the several Class D airports because
    heavy iron or corporate aircraft are on my tail, which is quite often in the
    Class B airspace of surrounding Detroit airspace.
    4. If flying a full approach preceded by a holding pattern, slow the
    plane down to 90 MPH within 3 minutes of entering the approach or once
    instructed to hold, pilot's choice. My CFII prefers slowing the plane down
    to 90 MPH once instructed because if you know the approach is going to take
    longer, you might as well as slow it down to save fuel and create reaction
    time. Who knows, by the time you enter the hold, approach control may
    cancel the hold because the faster heavy iron has already been established
    on final.



    This is how I was taught. I am sure there are other procedures to fly the
    approach just as efficient.









    Mark Perry

    N6997R 1975 Sundowner (M-1745)



    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of hoyle_taught_me_everything
    Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 7:44 PM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [musketeermail] Instrument Approach Speeds



    Howdy folks,

    I'm going to be sitting for my Instrument check ride real soon, and
    want to hear some discussion about Instrument Approach Speeds and
    configuration. I've been working several configurations in my '70
    Sierra, and am not yet satisfied.

    I've been throwing the gear at the IAF. The point being I can slow
    from the enroute environment and I typically do a GUMP at each fix. I
    don't care if I do 4 or 5 GUMPS, I don't want the gear tucked away
    when I land. The problem is, as you know, the plane slows
    drastically, and you get the nice yaw effect from the nose gear
    turning. This almost kills a *speed up* approach.

    I am comfortable with the final approach segment though. I've been
    flying that at 110kts, gear down, flaps up. There is no trouble
    getting the Sierra slow and dirty from 110kts and 200agl, and if you
    have to go missed, a tug on the nose and application of power is all
    that is needed. I also like that the plane isn't slow and mushy. I
    think my passengers will appreciate that too, particularly when we
    can't see anything.

    Nonetheless, I'm sure there are lots of you that have a favorite
    configuration for an instrument approach, and I'd like to hear about
    it. I'm interested in all segments from IAF to DH or MAP, including
    holding, procedure turns, speed up, and configuration when the
    controller dumps you on the localizer at the marker while still
    clipping along at a buck 30. Whatever you send me, I'll try with a
    safety pilot to find what I like best.

    Thanx for any input!

    Regards,

    RJF




    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org






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  5. #5

    Instrument Approach Speeds

    If I am correct, the 90kts on the approach plate is Ground Speed not
    Airspeed. You might be hard pressed to get 90kts ground speed in a 10kt head
    wind on final.

    Jeff Bryant
    Southwest Regional Director
    Beech Aero Club


    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of Mark Perry
    Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 4:57 AM
    To: 'hoyle_taught_me_everything'; musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [musketeermail] Instrument Approach Speeds


    RJF



    I took my instrument check ride (in a Piper Archer) back in November 2004
    and passed flying the Category "A" 90 MPH approach speed from prior to
    intercepting the final approach course to MDA/DH(A). My ATP certified CFII
    FAA Flight Safety Instructor also taught me to fly the approach in my
    Sundowner using the same procedure as with the Archer.



    1. If being vectored to final approach course, begin setting up
    (mixture full rich, fuel boost "on," slow to 90 MPH, 1 notch of flaps, carb
    heat as needed, landing gear - "3 in the green" even though fixed gear) for
    the approach course within 2 - 4 miles of intercepting the final approach
    course; or if flying the complete approach starting at IAF, also begin
    setting up within 2 - 4 miles of IAF.
    2. My CFII taught me to maintain assigned altitude until intercepting
    the final approach course. Interception, as taught, is achieved once the
    CDI is within 4 degrees of the final approach course rather than once the
    CDI begins moving off the peg from within 10 degrees.
    3. Fly the final approach course at 90 MPH until reaching MDA/DH(A).
    The only exception to maintaining Cat. A speed is if approach control
    instructs me to keep my speed up into the several Class D airports because
    heavy iron or corporate aircraft are on my tail, which is quite often in the
    Class B airspace of surrounding Detroit airspace.
    4. If flying a full approach preceded by a holding pattern, slow the
    plane down to 90 MPH within 3 minutes of entering the approach or once
    instructed to hold, pilot's choice. My CFII prefers slowing the plane down
    to 90 MPH once instructed because if you know the approach is going to take
    longer, you might as well as slow it down to save fuel and create reaction
    time. Who knows, by the time you enter the hold, approach control may
    cancel the hold because the faster heavy iron has already been established
    on final.



    This is how I was taught. I am sure there are other procedures to fly the
    approach just as efficient.









    Mark Perry

    N6997R 1975 Sundowner (M-1745)



    _____

    From: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:musketeermail@yahoogroups.com]
    On Behalf Of hoyle_taught_me_everything
    Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 7:44 PM
    To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: [musketeermail] Instrument Approach Speeds



    Howdy folks,

    I'm going to be sitting for my Instrument check ride real soon, and
    want to hear some discussion about Instrument Approach Speeds and
    configuration. I've been working several configurations in my '70
    Sierra, and am not yet satisfied.

    I've been throwing the gear at the IAF. The point being I can slow
    from the enroute environment and I typically do a GUMP at each fix. I
    don't care if I do 4 or 5 GUMPS, I don't want the gear tucked away
    when I land. The problem is, as you know, the plane slows
    drastically, and you get the nice yaw effect from the nose gear
    turning. This almost kills a *speed up* approach.

    I am comfortable with the final approach segment though. I've been
    flying that at 110kts, gear down, flaps up. There is no trouble
    getting the Sierra slow and dirty from 110kts and 200agl, and if you
    have to go missed, a tug on the nose and application of power is all
    that is needed. I also like that the plane isn't slow and mushy. I
    think my passengers will appreciate that too, particularly when we
    can't see anything.

    Nonetheless, I'm sure there are lots of you that have a favorite
    configuration for an instrument approach, and I'd like to hear about
    it. I'm interested in all segments from IAF to DH or MAP, including
    holding, procedure turns, speed up, and configuration when the
    controller dumps you on the localizer at the marker while still
    clipping along at a buck 30. Whatever you send me, I'll try with a
    safety pilot to find what I like best.

    Thanx for any input!

    Regards,

    RJF




    Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!

    www.beechaeroclub.org






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  6. #6

    Instrument Approach Speeds

    FWIW:

    You might want to delay the gear until you hear from the
    contoller, "Cleared for the XXX approach". Sometimes you get
    vectored past the IAF ut you will always get your clearance prior to
    the FAF.

    As for configurations, I presume you already have the power states
    figured out. My Musketeer has the following:
    Aircraft State Power (RPM) Attitude Speed (KIAS) VSI
    (Ft/Min)
    T.O. Climb 2500 6a UP 70 500-600
    Cruise 2500 0a 95 0
    Cruise Descent 2000 6a DOWN 100 100
    Approach Level 2400 1a UP 90 0
    Precision Descent 2050 2a DOWN 90 500
    Non-Precision Descent 1800 5a DOWN 90 700-800
    500 Fpm Climb 2600 4a UP 87 500

    Just cut and paste into Excel for a table (the a is for a degree
    symbol). You'll need to add gear up or down to yours for a Sierra
    AND your power settings will need RPM and Manifold Pressure. Run an
    airplane by the numbers and things get a LOT easier.

    That said, when I fly into some airports I do get requests to keep
    speed up (usually 'cuz there's a Citation jet on a long final behind
    me). In order to comply I have shot an ILS at 130MPH indicated
    keeping the LOC/GS needles "square". (Impressed the heck out of my
    instructor...)


    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "hoyle_taught_me_everything"
    <p339@p...> wrote:
    > Howdy folks,
    >
    > I'm going to be sitting for my Instrument check ride real soon, and
    > want to hear some discussion about Instrument Approach Speeds and
    > configuration. I've been working several configurations in my '70
    > Sierra, and am not yet satisfied.
    >
    > I've been throwing the gear at the IAF. The point being I can slow
    > from the enroute environment and I typically do a GUMP at each
    fix. I
    > don't care if I do 4 or 5 GUMPS, I don't want the gear tucked away
    > when I land. The problem is, as you know, the plane slows
    > drastically, and you get the nice yaw effect from the nose gear
    > turning. This almost kills a *speed up* approach.
    >
    > I am comfortable with the final approach segment though. I've been
    > flying that at 110kts, gear down, flaps up. There is no trouble
    > getting the Sierra slow and dirty from 110kts and 200agl, and if you
    > have to go missed, a tug on the nose and application of power is all
    > that is needed. I also like that the plane isn't slow and mushy. I
    > think my passengers will appreciate that too, particularly when we
    > can't see anything.
    >
    > Nonetheless, I'm sure there are lots of you that have a favorite
    > configuration for an instrument approach, and I'd like to hear about
    > it. I'm interested in all segments from IAF to DH or MAP, including
    > holding, procedure turns, speed up, and configuration when the
    > controller dumps you on the localizer at the marker while still
    > clipping along at a buck 30. Whatever you send me, I'll try with a
    > safety pilot to find what I like best.
    >
    > Thanx for any input!
    >
    > Regards,
    >
    > RJF




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