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Thread: POLL: any interest in speed mods developed for A19-C23 model

  1. #1

    POLL: any interest in speed mods developed for A19-C23 model

    DOC
    We talked to someone from Knots 2u and they said
    while they were not interested in developing anything
    for the musketeer they would be glad to work with
    someone who wanted to put it together. Last year my
    a&P did a Knots 2u to on an Arrow so we tried all the
    parts on the sport 19A and it was amazing how close it
    was it wouldn't take much to make the changes.
    Bob n5083t sport19A

    --- docmirror <docmirror@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > I'd like to find out if there are others that would
    > support a development of
    > the type of flap/gap seals available for the
    > 33/35/36 airframe. Nothing
    > fancy, but much of the development work has been
    > done on Mooney's,
    > Piper's, etc. Getting the same type of technology
    > transferred over to this
    > airframe shouldn't present too large of a challenge.
    >
    >
    > As with anything, there is no value in development
    > for one airframe, but for
    > a larger population, the cost might be supportable.
    > We can't do anything
    > about the main gear, but maybe the flap/gap seal
    > will give about 4-6 MPH
    > at $400-800 cost?
    >
    > Send me an email if you think it's worth looking
    > into. docmirror @
    > yahoo.com (omit the spaces in the address).
    >
    > Gear down and welded,
    >
    > Doc
    >
    >
    >




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  2. #2

    POLL: any interest in speed mods developed for A19-C23 model

    >The only things that seem to be practical are the obvious. Keep your
    >engine and prop in good repair, watch your CG and load for aft balance,
    >don't tanker too much fuel and keep your rigging right.

    Amen. This alone can be 6-10 mph with no cost at all. A wash and wax can
    add a couple knots, too.

    >Above all, remember that an hour in a Musketeer lasts the same amount of
    >time as an hour in an F-16 but doesn't cost near as much. If you take a
    >long time to get there you get to log more time. So, relax and enjoy the
    >scenery.
    >
    >As with anything, there is no value in development for one airframe, but for
    >a larger population, the cost might be supportable. We can't do anything
    >about the main gear, but maybe the flap/gap seal will give about 4-6 MPH
    >at $400-800 cost?

    Places like LoPresti and Knots2U have established that the cost for speed
    mods is $1000/knot, when available via STC.

    It would be interesting to know what sort of business model exists to do it
    for 1/10th that amount.

    Bob Steward, A&P IA
    Birmingham, AL




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  3. #3
    Orbiting Earth Orbiting Earth sjcote's Avatar
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    POLL: any interest in speed mods developed for A19-C23 model

    Doc,
    I don't know if you have a particular outfit in mind to do this...but three years ago I had a chat with Roy LoPresti at Oshkosh (great guy,spent half hour with a nobody like me just 'cuz I was a pilot). I asked him about speed mods for the Mouse. He told me that they had made several starts in looking into this. But, he told me, at those times the company had too many easy targets (read: more A/C in a particular fleet). It only made good business sense to develop them first; with the profit from those, the company could delve into less lucrative corners.
    Maybe now is the time...although I hear that only Roy would think like this and pay attention to a small market like us.
    Steve Cote
    N1958L

    >From: docmirror <docmirror@yahoo.com>
    >Date: Tue Jun 07 15:58:43 CDT 2005
    >To: musketeermail@yahoogroups.com
    >Subject: [musketeermail] POLL: any interest in speed mods developed for A19-C23 models?

    >I'd like to find out if there are others that would support a development of
    >the type of flap/gap seals available for the 33/35/36 airframe. Nothing
    >fancy, but much of the development work has been done on Mooney's,
    >Piper's, etc. Getting the same type of technology transferred over to this
    >airframe shouldn't present too large of a challenge.
    >
    >As with anything, there is no value in development for one airframe, but for
    >a larger population, the cost might be supportable. We can't do anything
    >about the main gear, but maybe the flap/gap seal will give about 4-6 MPH
    >at $400-800 cost?
    >
    >Send me an email if you think it's worth looking into. docmirror @
    >yahoo.com (omit the spaces in the address).
    >
    >Gear down and welded,
    >
    >Doc
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Join BAC today and be a part of the ONLY Type Club for the Musketeer series!
    >
    >www.beechaeroclub.org
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Yahoo! Groups Links
    >To visit your group on the web, go to:
    >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/musketeermail/
    >?To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    >musketeermail-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
    >?Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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  4. #4

    POLL: any interest in speed mods developed for A19-C23 model

    I'm an engineer and just got approval for a sizable interior mod
    (unrelated) and will offer that you can probably get pretty far in
    this project on your own, as a field approval for your one
    airplane. Others can use that as a basis for theirs.

    Because of the amount of existing precedent, find the exact same
    applications from somebody else for a Bonanza, Piper, or Mooney and
    get a copy of their STC paperwork. If there are drawings, so much
    the better. Copying those as much as possible, figure out the exact
    specifics of what you want to have in the end and make drawings that
    show the design of any parts needed, how to attach it, what on the
    airplane needs modification, what paint or other finished to use,
    etc. These need to be as exactly like the proven ones as possible
    and will become the start of the "engineering basis" that the FAA
    will need. It may help to break it into bite-size chunks, with one
    for flap fairings, one for flap seals, etc. BTW, I would term this
    as "drag reduction" and stay away from anything that includes the
    words "speed" or "performance improvement" unless you want to get
    into a full flight test program.

    At that point, find an IA who is willing to work with you and write
    up a field approval 337. Don't forget to include any changes to the
    operating handbook and maintenance ICA (instructions for continued
    airworthiness). I can not over-emphasize how important it is to
    have a finished package that shows you did your homework before the
    next step.

    Once you have a "same-as" basis and a draft 337, you or your IA will
    ask the FSDO for an inspector to give it a preliminary review. It
    helps to ask different IA's if there are any inspectors in
    particular to go to, or to avoid. You're NOT going for approval,
    you are going with the purpose of DROPPING OFF the draft 337 and
    background info (two separate packets) for the inspector to be able
    to look at. At that point, just wait for him to talk to his boss
    and whoever else makes him comfortable. After a few weeks, he'll
    call and give you a decision that you will have to live with.

    If your 337 looks rational and "same-as" enough, he can tell you to
    submit 2 clean copies for him to stamp as acceptable (one for you
    and one for your plane's records in OKC). More likely, he will call
    and tell you what your draft needs. You thank him profusely for his
    time and either tell him it'll be too much for you to do, or that
    you'll incorporate what he has decided. Don't leave him hanging and
    don't be surprised if he asks to see the airplane when you're done.
    (Make sure your logs are in order and the plane looks good if he
    does.) Do NOT start any work until you have his signature on the
    337!!!

    There will be virtually no dickering, because he will have already
    talked to his boss(es). As an example of this, I proposed in my
    recent mod for the GA airplane (certified to Part 23) to use
    replacement interior materials that met the tougher fire
    requirements of transport airplanes (Part 25.853). Because the GA
    airplane was not certified to Part 25, the inspector argued that I
    must call out that the far less stringent materials properties of
    Part 23.853. Think about that one a second. He did
    accept "materials meeting Part 23.853 or better" which recognized
    the easier certification requirements, but allowed the better Part
    25.853 materials to be used.

    Again, start by doing your homework, talking to Bonanza/Piper/Mooney
    owners to collect paperwork from similar existing mods, and finding
    an agreeable IA.

    Bob
    Aero Eng, A&P

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "docmirror" <docmirror@y...>
    wrote:
    > I'd like to find out if there are others that would support a
    development of
    > the type of flap/gap seals available for the 33/35/36 airframe.
    Nothing
    > fancy, but much of the development work has been done on Mooney's,
    > Piper's, etc. Getting the same type of technology transferred over
    to this
    > airframe shouldn't present too large of a challenge.
    >
    > As with anything, there is no value in development for one
    airframe, but for
    > a larger population, the cost might be supportable. We can't do
    anything
    > about the main gear, but maybe the flap/gap seal will give about 4-
    6 MPH
    > at $400-800 cost?
    >
    > Send me an email if you think it's worth looking into. docmirror @
    > yahoo.com (omit the spaces in the address).
    >
    > Gear down and welded,
    >
    > Doc




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  5. #5

    POLL: any interest in speed mods developed for A19-C23 model

    A while back I talked with an aerodynamicist about cleaning up the
    Musketeer for better speed. He suggested that gap seals would be a
    quick and easy and add about a knot or two. He suggested that
    efforts be placed into three other areas. Cooling drag, wheel
    fairings and wing-body root fairings. He also suggested to get a
    copy of Kent Paser's book "Speed with Economy". Mr. Paser took an
    experimental (Mustang 2) and added about 30 knots by just paying
    attention to the details. He also documented which modifications
    paid off the most.

    With what I read in this book, the Musketeers would gain about 15-20
    knots if all three areas were cleaned up. The wheel fairings can be
    done. I have a design concept. A new cowl with speed mods is also
    possible. Wing root fairings could be added but the doors would not
    allow the "ideal" radius to be used. We'd need STCs for all of
    these.




    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "docmirror" <docmirror@y...>
    wrote:
    > I'd like to find out if there are others that would support a
    development of
    > the type of flap/gap seals available for the 33/35/36 airframe.
    Nothing
    > fancy, but much of the development work has been done on Mooney's,
    > Piper's, etc. Getting the same type of technology transferred over
    to this
    > airframe shouldn't present too large of a challenge.
    >
    > As with anything, there is no value in development for one
    airframe, but for
    > a larger population, the cost might be supportable. We can't do
    anything
    > about the main gear, but maybe the flap/gap seal will give about 4-
    6 MPH
    > at $400-800 cost?
    >
    > Send me an email if you think it's worth looking into. docmirror @
    > yahoo.com (omit the spaces in the address).
    >
    > Gear down and welded,
    >
    > Doc




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  6. #6

    POLL: any interest in speed mods developed for A19-C23 model

    I was going to build a Mustang II before I bought my Musketeer, and I
    purchased Paser's book and read it. If you own an experimental and
    can make the mods he suggests, go for it. But for those of us who
    own certified a/c - I think we have to accept the fact that tinkerin'
    isn't for us.

    Bob S has posted his suggestions on how to get better performance
    from our planes w/o spending a dime - and they WORK.

    My plane has Demer's Tips (aka Madras), and I can tell you that they
    really work. I had my BFR last evening, and we practiced slow flight
    and were able to slow it to 60 MPH with full flaps before the break.
    They seem to be even better in ground effect. But the FAA determined
    that the payload weight for the plane had to be reduced (75 lbs or
    125 lbs - I forget) significantly, and that hurt sales, obviously.
    Ace Deemer worked hard to get his invention accepted and approved,
    but it seems to me like an endless uphill battle.

    How much effort/time/money is someone going to invest to make a 35-
    year-old plane 5 knots faster? Like someone else already said -
    enjoy the ride for a little longer.

    Personally, on my budget, I would NOT spend $1000 for a knot or even
    5 knots improvement in cruise. I'd rather spend the money flying my
    plane.

    --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "ajpcps" <ajpcps@y...> wrote:
    > A while back I talked with an aerodynamicist about cleaning up the
    > Musketeer for better speed. He suggested that gap seals would be a
    > quick and easy and add about a knot or two. He suggested that
    > efforts be placed into three other areas. Cooling drag, wheel
    > fairings and wing-body root fairings. He also suggested to get a
    > copy of Kent Paser's book "Speed with Economy". Mr. Paser took an
    > experimental (Mustang 2) and added about 30 knots by just paying
    > attention to the details. He also documented which modifications
    > paid off the most.
    >
    > With what I read in this book, the Musketeers would gain about 15-
    20
    > knots if all three areas were cleaned up. The wheel fairings can
    be
    > done. I have a design concept. A new cowl with speed mods is also
    > possible. Wing root fairings could be added but the doors would
    not
    > allow the "ideal" radius to be used. We'd need STCs for all of
    > these.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --- In musketeermail@yahoogroups.com, "docmirror" <docmirror@y...>
    > wrote:
    > > I'd like to find out if there are others that would support a
    > development of
    > > the type of flap/gap seals available for the 33/35/36 airframe.
    > Nothing
    > > fancy, but much of the development work has been done on
    Mooney's,
    > > Piper's, etc. Getting the same type of technology transferred
    over
    > to this
    > > airframe shouldn't present too large of a challenge.
    > >
    > > As with anything, there is no value in development for one
    > airframe, but for
    > > a larger population, the cost might be supportable. We can't do
    > anything
    > > about the main gear, but maybe the flap/gap seal will give about
    4-
    > 6 MPH
    > > at $400-800 cost?
    > >
    > > Send me an email if you think it's worth looking into. docmirror
    @
    > > yahoo.com (omit the spaces in the address).
    > >
    > > Gear down and welded,
    > >
    > > Doc




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  7. #7

    POLL: any interest in speed mods developed for A19-C23 model

    I've been resisting the temptation to weigh in on this subject yet again, as it has been hashed out so many times in this forum. Since this will automatically get archived in BAC, I'll set out some key points one last time. Some will agree with my observations, and some won't, but please let's not crank up any arguments on the subject. If what I state contradicts some of what others have said, please don't take it to mean that I am calling them untruthful. There is a lot of misinformation drifting around in aviation, regularly re-repeated as fact. And I can also be wrong.

    Bob Steward has repeatedly listed the fastest, cheapest, and easiest ways to get more speed from our planes. While it isn't the exact math, you can figure on a four to one payback, if you obtain speed through drag reduction rather than added power. In other words, if you get one knot of speed from reduced drag, it would have taken four horsepower to get the same improvement. When you see comments of five or ten knots coming from a 150 HP to 160 HP upgrade, take it with a grain of salt. This kind of speed increase usually comes because someone who was getting 80 HP at 60% in a worn engine is now getting 120 HP at 75% in a fresh one. Having said this, in many cases we are not getting the design HP from our engines, due to constraints created by the induction and exhaust systems. Those are airframe manufacturer designs, as opposed to engine manufacturer designs. That's where outfits like Powerflow Systems come into the picture, to help achieve design power. But again, there has to be a perceived market. We can probably figure on around $4,000 for a new PFS system. How many in our fleet would pay that, if they can get the stock one "rebuilt" for $1,500? I can tell you that despite about 24 months of effort, I wound up with 32 names on the "PFS Interest Spreadsheet". Out of probably 600-700 owners who probably saw my inquiries. Comes to about 5% of the population. If we have 2,500 planes still flying of all models, that's a potential market of maybe 125 planes for PFS, spread across probably a minimum of five engine compartment and engine combinations. Now that's really gonna wow 'em. And this is for what is probably the most proven performance mod that has hit the market since I began flying, and which is the only one I have ever seen that carries a money-back guarantee.

    Drag reduction claims, and associated speed increases, are known in the industry to be wildly exaggerated. While worthwhile gains are had by installing complete packages, virtually none of the claims made for individual changes have lived up to their advertising. That's part of the reason why costs are so high; it takes complete packages to make a notable difference, and package costs are high. Many fairly complex changes, such as installing aileron gap reducers (as opposed to true gap seals), may not even show a measurable change on their own, if you aren't capable of making measurements like a true test pilot. In fact, here's one interesting aspect I have noticed. Sometimes a change may not show a detectable difference in level flight, for a number of reasons (usually an inability to measure well enough). The first way you may notice an improvement is via a more rapid speed increase, when you nudge the nose over for a gentle descent. In other words, drag is not rising as fast as it used to, as speed rises.

    Not all changes will benefit all airframes the same way. My readings (and some experiments) have convinced me that many things that look good don't make you go faster. For example, on planes in our class, there is no wingtip design that has been conclusively proven to add cruise speed, though many shapes have been tried (culminating in the Hoerner tip design). That's why the early Mooneys had flat-plate wingtips. All the rest just make things look better, and provide a place to mount more visible lighting. Another example is the often-mentioned wing root fairing. On planes like the Bonanza, where the underside of the wing basically extends unbroken across the bottom of the fuselage, there is one intersection drag area on the top (and the forward edge). The long forward strake and associated fairing helps with drag reduction, in part by keeping turbulent cowling air from flowing under the wing at that point. On our planes the wing intersects the fuselage in the side, with fuselage both above and below; a higher-drag design but cheaper and stronger to build. From all indications, the lowest drag design for this situation is a right angle (no junction fairing). I have read Kent Poser's book, too. While extremely interesting, it was just as useful for its information on what did NOT work, as for what did. Not to mention what he went through while finding that out. If you were to value Kent's time, his speed improvement certainly came at a cost far exceeding the $1,000 per knot figure. How many of us have the capability of doing the experimentation and measurements to find that out on our planes? Even if we went about it legally? If you are a business that plans to market a speed-enhancement product (and not fudge the truth), you have to do all that experimentation and test flying before you even know whether you'll have something marketable. That's part of the reason why you need a decent potential market size. By the way, I was planning to sell the book on eBay, having read it twice. Let me know if you are interested.

    Some of the same people who wish for things like gap seals must never look very closely at their airplane. At the same time that they are wishing for changes that would cost mucho thousands of dollars and require FAA approvals, they have drain tubes sticking out three inches into the wind. Or a sled-style marker beacon antenna; or an ADF long-wire antenna; or two unused fuselage antennas that used to be for a Loran or whatever. Or doors that stick out 3/8" when latched; or bent trim tabs that are holding the flight surfaces deflected because the plane is out of rig. Or twenty pounds in unused avionics cables, trays, racks, etc. Or any number of other drag-inducing issues. You could spend the money on a panel-mount GPS, have a canoe marker beacon antenna installed, dump the ADF and other junk antennas, and re-rig the airplane, and accomplish what $20,000 in new speed mods might provide (for a fraction of the cost). And you get state-of-the-art navigation to boot, that lets you fly Direct, with the effective speed and range increase that provides (along with the added safety). A shorter routing and skipping a fuel stop effectively gives you a decidedly faster plane. Not to mention the fact that upgraded avionics and a lightweight starter may well give you a legal payload increase. This assumes you are traveling in the plane. If you are just making burger runs, save your mods-money for the burgers, as so many have said before.

    In some cases the later airframes have incorporated some drag reduction changes. Take a look at a C-model Sundowner, and compare the aileron gaps, fuel drains, flap stops and gaps, etc. to those on your plane. See whether there are some changes that you could retrofit on your earlier plane, with reduced paperwork requirements (and no design or testing needs).

    While there are always some with the interest, and perhaps even the willingness, most of those who fly our planes will not spend the major money to get aftermarket speed mods. People just do not spend 25%-50% of their airframe value on things like this. When coupled with the small airframe population, that's why there is no viable business model to bring these products to market for our planes. The people who used to do it, just to see whether they could, are largely gone. Roy LoPresti was a great guy, who died a while back. He was gently discouraging about pursuing parts for our planes, although he did add the 19/23/24 to the list of wheel cover approvals for me. His heirs who now own the company won't even respond to my notes about their Hubba-Hubba caps for BAC members; for example, adding the 76 and 77 to their list of approvals, and selling packages of three caps for the fixed gear gang. They have no interest in discussing our planes at Sun-N-Fun these days; there's just nothing in it for them.

    We do have some individuals on MML and/or in BAC with an interest in pursuing these kinds of things at the personal level. In most cases, those who are serious about it seem to have the background to both understand the issues and to take the best courses of action. In no way do I want to discourage those folks. If we ever do get things like wheel pants for the fixed gear, that's how it is going to happen. Part of the reason for forming BAC was in the hope we would have a formalized organization that could help with expanding the applicability of a design beyond a specific plane, and get it to the wider market, for things like this.

    To sum up, if you really need a significantly faster plane, sell yours and buy a faster one... and live with the trade-offs. I'm sure that this will sound like a wet blanket to some, and it isn't intended that way. My intent was to try and steer the dialog away from pie-in-the-sky, and redirect it toward realistic possibilities. If there are twenty people out there who are convinced that wheel pants would be worth their cost, how about contacting the one or two folks who say they are actually pursuing it. Get involved in the design, in an effort to help assure design portability across models. Be supportive. Offer financial assistance to get some prototypes airborne for flight testing. Offer to put your plane in the Experimental category for a fixed time, for a test bed. Make something come to fruition, rather than just wishing for it! No outside manufacturer is going to do this for us, and no one of us can do everything. My apologies for the length of this, and I won't post on this topic any further on MML.

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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  8. #8

    POLL: any interest in speed mods developed for A19-C23 model

    Just to add some anecdotal evidence to what Mike says below ... I
    recently had my Super stripped and painted. At the same time, I had
    the fixed-pitch prop overhauld, had a Loran, a stereo, and a VHF
    direction finder plus their 4 respective whip antennas removed. My
    plane has now gone from being a 120kt aircraft to a 125kt aircraft.

    Best regards,

    Steve Robertson
    N4732J 1967 Super III

    <snip>

    > Some of the same people who wish for things like gap seals must
    never look very closely at their airplane. At the same time that
    they are wishing for changes that would cost mucho thousands of
    dollars and require FAA approvals, they have drain tubes sticking out
    three inches into the wind. Or a sled-style marker beacon antenna;
    or an ADF long-wire antenna; or two unused fuselage antennas that
    used to be for a Loran or whatever. Or doors that stick out 3/8"
    when latched; or bent trim tabs that are holding the flight surfaces
    deflected because the plane is out of rig. Or twenty pounds in
    unused avionics cables, trays, racks, etc. Or any number of other
    drag-inducing issues. You could spend the money on a panel-mount
    GPS, have a canoe marker beacon antenna installed, dump the ADF and
    other junk antennas, and re-rig the airplane, and accomplish what
    $20,000 in new speed mods might provide (for a fraction of the
    cost). And you get state-of-the-art navigation to boot, that lets
    you fly Direct, with the effective speed and range increase that
    provides (along with the added safety). A shorter routing and
    skipping a fuel stop effectively gives you a decidedly faster
    plane. Not to mention the fact that upgraded avionics and a
    lightweight starter may well give you a legal payload increase.
    This assumes you are traveling in the plane. If you are just making
    burger runs, save your mods-money for the burgers, as so many have
    said before.
    >





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